More on GP 500 Physics....

In the alpha code they tried to simulate the effects of moving forward and backwards on the seat. They also simulated the effects of differnt degrees of lean off the bike instead of assuming a centered position as in EA Superbikes. They also have some of the current crop of real GP500 riders testing the software and giving feedback on the physics (and hopefully providing some ghost laps I can practice against). When I last visited the programmers there were dozens of books on bike physics, tuning, riding techniques and racing history they used as refence. The programmers attend real GP500 meetings with the software in hand to get feedback from real riders. The effort they are putting into the realism of the physics is astounding. Please ignore the raving of people in this newsgroup and elswhere on the web who are making uneducated guesses at the physics based on a few stills they have seen. When the demo is released then I am sure there will be a good debate on it's merits within this newsgroup.

It's just natural cynisism, and perhaps understandable. I could list you quite a few products where precisely the effort you described above was put in, and yet an arcade turkey was the result. Feedback from drivers, tested by drivers, telemetry data, physics books and analysis, techniques and theory etc - made no difference untimately. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating as you say, and I think people should hold on and give them the benefit of the doubt at least, especially since although they have no track record of good products they have no track record of letting anyone down either! Looking forward to trying it :-) Cheers! John

>In the alpha code they tried to simulate the effects of moving forward >and backwards on the seat. They also simulated the effects of differnt <all the good stuff snipped> Mark, Well we all know that to go faster you need to get partially off the seat to take a corner, somebody who can do this is likely to have around 30% more speed than the guy who stays on his seat, wondering what the next thought of the front tyre is going to be :) And you also need plenty of weight forward, under acceleration everything shifts back and you really got to keep that front tyre loaded as much as poss. I've saved two tank slappers caused by a combination of too much speed on shoddy road quality in the last 100 miles on my bike, and it is seriously worrying when its happening. But getting to the point, as somebody who is very accustomed to fast lap times and close racing in GPL (and who was on the Papyrus test team in fact for this product), I'm very aware of some of the physics complexities that are involved. My question to you is similar to John's comment, with my cynical British hat on, that so many developers have hyped their physics (and/or AI) compared to the other products and within minutes of trying them, for one reason or another, I am left feeling totally dissatisfied. The problem is the *** bikers, drivers, racers whatever amongst us have been spoiled by the talent of the Papyrus team in their ability to create awesome physics, control routines and computer AI, that virtually everything else leaves us cold. My concern is that the EA Superbike game didn't sell particularly well, and that in my opinion contains "ok" physics, probably the best bike physics available to the public, but to somebody who enjoys real biking, it is still very limited as far as recreating the real experience. Sadly, I honestly believe that the GPL engine adapted to a bike simulator would be almost impossible to use - therefore difficult to sell... and canned "arcade-style" physics featuring wonderful pre-programmed spins, slides, or in the case of bikes, low-sides, high-sides, whatever) just won't impress me at all. The delight of the GPL engine is that it is always manipulating the many attributes of the car as a result of some fantastic calculations of the player inputs, the vehicle and its surroundings. What the car does is always the sum of everything occuring around it, not the other way around. Anyway, enough rambling on, but if you're still reading all this, good luck with your product - I am a natural cynic, but that only increases the curiosity I have in all the new products - I'm certainly very eager to try it and of course I'm looking forward to be impressed :) All the best, Mike (Yamaha R6)

>Well we all know that to go faster you need to get partially off the seat to >take a corner, somebody who can do this is likely to have around 30% more >speed than the guy who stays on his seat, wondering what the next thought of >the front tyre is going to be :) You know what might be interesting, is a bike sim that supports two joysticks - one used for gas/brake and turning, the other used for leaning in any direction. Might take a bit of getting used to, but I don't see how else it's possible to make a semi-realistic riding experience (unless the leaning is done automatically, but that kind of takes the fun and skill out of it). Joe McGinn ========================================== Staff Writer for the Sports *** Network [link lost in import: /***.com/] ==========================================

I always felt that a simple third axis like on the MS Sidewinder joysticks (the tilt pivot action) would be a great tool to do such a thing. Turn the joystick on it's axis into corners to lean, and left/right to turn the front wheel in that direction. -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

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> >The effort they are putting into the realism > >of the physics is astounding. Please ignore the raving of people in this > >newsgroup and elswhere on the web who are making uneducated guesses at > >the physics based on a few stills they have seen. > It's just natural cynisism, and perhaps understandable. I could list > you quite a few products where precisely the effort you described > above was put in, and yet an arcade turkey was the result. Feedback > from drivers, tested by drivers, telemetry data, physics books and > analysis, techniques and theory etc - made no difference untimately. > The proof of the pudding will be in the eating as you say, and I think > people should hold on and give them the benefit of the doubt at least, > especially since although they have no track record of good products > they have no track record of letting anyone down either! > Looking forward to trying it :-) > Cheers! > John

Wait right there. Microprose we are talking about here. Quote "especially since although they have no track record of good products." Have you ever heard of the best f1 racing sim to this date. GP2. created by none other than microprose. GP500 is not a geoff crammond game but I hope and suspect this game will set a new level in motocycle road racing sims just like how SBK did. I also hope motosims.com would notice that their AMA Superbike game will hit way less of a group of people compared to GP500 and SBK which are world class championships. DjFIL

It still doesn't mean anything. They are both different products, by different teams It's like saying that since Papyrus did GPL that every product that Papyrus does it on the same level, which is not true as you can see all the titles that were or will be released after GPL (NR99, Craftmans Truck, N3). -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

>Wait right there. Microprose we are talking about here. Quote "especially >since although they have no track record of good products." Have you ever >heard of the best f1 racing sim to this date. GP2. created by none other >than microprose. Created by none other than Geoff Crammond - BOXED by none other than Microprose. If I stuck you in a Manchester United jersey could you play like David Beckham? Cheers! John

>I always felt that a simple third axis like on the MS Sidewinder joysticks >(the tilt pivot action) would be a great tool to do such a thing. Turn the >joystick on it's axis into corners to lean, and left/right to turn the front >wheel in that direction. Good point! People with rudder pedals could also use them for side-to-side leaning. Still, it would be nice to have forward/back analog leaning as well. Joe McGinn ========================================== Staff Writer for the Sports *** Network [link lost in import: /***.com/] ==========================================

Excellent post Mike I agree 100% Now I wish they would stop recycling some of that great work and give us the new stuff <g> Mick in Tampa

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> >In the alpha code they tried to simulate the effects of moving forward > >and backwards on the seat. They also simulated the effects of differnt > <all the good stuff snipped> > Mark, > Well we all know that to go faster you need to get partially off the seat to > take a corner, somebody who can do this is likely to have around 30% more > speed than the guy who stays on his seat, wondering what the next thought of > the front tyre is going to be :) And you also need plenty of weight > forward, under acceleration everything shifts back and you really got to > keep that front tyre loaded as much as poss. I've saved two tank slappers > caused by a combination of too much speed on shoddy road quality in the last > 100 miles on my bike, and it is seriously worrying when its happening. But > getting to the point, as somebody who is very accustomed to fast lap times > and close racing in GPL (and who was on the Papyrus test team in fact for > this product), I'm very aware of some of the physics complexities that are > involved. My question to you is similar to John's comment, with my cynical > British hat on, that so many developers have hyped their physics (and/or AI) > compared to the other products and within minutes of trying them, for one > reason or another, I am left feeling totally dissatisfied. The problem is > the *** bikers, drivers, racers whatever amongst us have been spoiled > by the talent of the Papyrus team in their ability to create awesome > physics, control routines and computer AI, that virtually everything else > leaves us cold. My concern is that the EA Superbike game didn't sell > particularly well, and that in my opinion contains "ok" physics, probably > the best bike physics available to the public, but to somebody who enjoys > real biking, it is still very limited as far as recreating the real > experience. Sadly, I honestly believe that the GPL engine adapted to a bike > simulator would be almost impossible to use - therefore difficult to sell... > and canned "arcade-style" physics featuring wonderful pre-programmed spins, > slides, or in the case of bikes, low-sides, high-sides, whatever) just won't > impress me at all. The delight of the GPL engine is that it is always > manipulating the many attributes of the car as a result of some fantastic > calculations of the player inputs, the vehicle and its surroundings. What > the car does is always the sum of everything occuring around it, not the > other way around. Anyway, enough rambling on, but if you're still reading > all this, good luck with your product - I am a natural cynic, but that only > increases the curiosity I have in all the new products - I'm certainly very > eager to try it and of course I'm looking forward to be impressed :) > All the best, > Mike (Yamaha R6)

>You know what might be interesting, is a bike sim that supports two >joysticks - one used for gas/brake and turning, the other used for >leaning in any direction. Might take a bit of getting used to, but I >don't see how else it's possible to make a semi-realistic riding >experience (unless the leaning is done automatically, but that kind of >takes the fun and skill out of it). You'd also need to be quite skilled to make your two hands perform completely unnatural movements like that, with the degree of precision you'd need - not sure I could do it! I'd certainly consider some kind of dedicated controller though, perhaps a knee attachment of some sort since much of the work you do on a bike can be with your knees gripping the tank... but it'd have to be one hell of a physics simulation to make me splash out on buying something like that. Mike.

Grab one of the arcade cycle games with and patch it through the gameport. ;) It'd be really cool, but hardly feasible I'd assume...:)

I've been wondering how an effective controller for a bike sim would work. Mr. ymeard is on to it. There are two basic forces a rider uses to initiate a turn on a motorcycle. Shifting his weight in the direction of the turn, and more importantly, apply counter steer to the handle bars. Counter steer is the most important rider action for control of turning. It produces the fastest response from the bike and can be done independent of any 'leaning' weight shift. If a bike sim doesn't use counter steer effectively it's not a good simulation of riding technique. I think the MS Sidewider joystick could do this. Push the stick left to shift weight left to turn left, and (this is the cool part) twist the stick right to counter steer right to turn left. This if done well would be the GPL of bike sims. I can hardly wait! Marty

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> > You know what might be interesting, is a bike sim that supports two > > joysticks - one used for gas/brake and turning, the other used for > > leaning in any direction. > I always felt that a simple third axis like on the MS Sidewinder joysticks > (the tilt pivot action) would be a great tool to do such a thing. Turn the > joystick on it's axis into corners to lean, and left/right to turn the front > wheel in that direction.

<snip>> If I stuck you in a Manchester United jersey could you Who cares, as long as the Spice Girl girlfriend didn't notice :) (Sorry - don't know which one she is!) Randy

I think YOUR on to something Marty! I was sitting here playing with my stick, :-) (a Sidewinder FF) I was thinking how cool it would be to counter steer using the "twist" axis. I'm hoping this is how its going to work!! I did a little test with SBK (mentally) and found it to be very easy to coordinate a turn. Almost felt natural in way! Can't wait to give this one a try. Cheers Bob

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> I've been wondering how an effective controller for a bike sim would work. Mr. > ymeard is on to it. > There are two basic forces a rider uses to initiate a turn on a motorcycle. > Shifting his weight in the direction of the turn, and more importantly, apply > counter steer to the handle bars. Counter steer is the most important rider > action for control of turning. It produces the fastest response from the bike > and can be done independent of any 'leaning' weight shift. If a bike sim doesn't > use counter steer effectively it's not a good simulation of riding technique. > I think the MS Sidewider joystick could do this. Push the stick left to shift > weight left to turn left, and (this is the cool part) twist the stick right to > counter steer right to turn left. This if done well would be the GPL of bike > sims. > I can hardly wait! > Marty > > > You know what might be interesting, is a bike sim that supports two > > > joysticks - one used for gas/brake and turning, the other used for > > > leaning in any direction. > > I always felt that a simple third axis like on the MS Sidewinder joysticks > > (the tilt pivot action) would be a great tool to do such a thing. Turn the > > joystick on it's axis into corners to lean, and left/right to turn the front > > wheel in that direction.

>> Wait right there. Microprose we are talking about here. Quote >"especially >> since although they have no track record of good products." Have you ever >> heard of the best f1 racing sim to this date. GP2. created by none other

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>> than microprose. >It still doesn't mean anything. They are both different products, by >different teams >It's like saying that since Papyrus did GPL that every product that Papyrus >does it on the same level, which is not true as you can see all the titles >that were or will be released after GPL (NR99, Craftmans Truck, N3).

Actually it's like saying "since Sierra created GPL then every Sierra sim/game must be on the same level" :-) Hena

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> >In the alpha code they tried to simulate the effects of moving forward > >and backwards on the seat. They also simulated the effects of differnt > <all the good stuff snipped> > Mark, > Well we all know that to go faster you need to get partially off the seat to > take a corner, somebody who can do this is likely to have around 30% more > speed than the guy who stays on his seat, wondering what the next thought of > the front tyre is going to be :) > All the best,

Hi Mike - I remember you from the old Compuserve racing forums! Don't you think we'll come back to that old problem of the car racing sims - one of the reasons people find GPL tough is the feedback they would get through the "seat of the pants" is missing from a computer sim and has to be supplied in other ways. For a bike racing sim, how would you "feel" when the tires are coming to the limit of their adhesion, either through excess lean angle or too much power/brakes? I think the ideal way would be through tire squeal, even though it's not actually authentic. The tire noise should be played through a 4-speaker surround system so you could sense front/rear grip. How do they handle this in GP500? - Michael

You don't have long to wait to try this out. -MSM -- __________________________________________________________________________ Mark S. Miller "Be regular and orderly in your life, Director of Design that you may be *** and original Motorsport Simulations in your work." [link lost in import]

When playing EA Superbike you can tell you about to eat pavement when The smoke starts coming from the tires. But sound and smoke would be Awesome. The tire screeching could get louder before you eat it. GP500 looks to be the winner not GP500ccm. Party on>>>> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

Tease! Next thing you'll tell is that it will even have counter-steering. Joe McGinn ========================================== Staff Writer for the Sports *** Network [link lost in import: /***.com/] ==========================================

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> >> You know what might be interesting, is a bike sim that supports two > >> joysticks - one used for gas/brake and turning, the other used for > >> leaning in any direction. [...] > >You don't have long to wait to try this out. > Tease! Next thing you'll tell is that it will even have > counter-steering.

We played around with this and found that it wasn't very controllable. Things got kind of unstable for the capabilities of the input devices. You will srill be able to control lean and steering independantly, but we sort of give you the advantage of countersteering for free. Maybe when we start dialing in the force-feedback stuff (so you can feel the weight transfer and catch the bike before "bad things" happen) we'll be able to turn that feature back on. -MSM -- __________________________________________________________________________ Mark S. Miller "Be regular and orderly in your life, Director of Design that you may be *** and original Motorsport Simulations in your work." [link lost in import]

Sounds interesting, thanks for the feedback. Independent leaning and steering is more than any other bike sim provides anyway. Joe McGinn ========================================== Staff Writer for the Sports *** Network [link lost in import: /***.com/] ==========================================

Not my product but I am a fan of the effort they are putting into it. Bike physics are almost inpossible to simulate using a normal input device like a joystick. However, by studying and modeling the myriad possibilites it is possible for talented programmers to simulate bike physics as realistically as POSSIBLE on the PC. I believe that is what the GP500 team is aiming for and the maximum we can expect. Things that do make a difference but can't be practically controlled on a PC must be estimated if not directly controlled by the sim rider. Sure, I am a cynic too and wait to play the game before judging the hyped up physics or graphics. I don't think that degrading a product before it's release is fair. The graphical quality of GP500 can be seen in the releases photos. Lets all wait and see anbout the physics. I have another BETA session this week and will give another opinion then.

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> >In the alpha code they tried to simulate the effects of moving forward > >and backwards on the seat. They also simulated the effects of differnt > <all the good stuff snipped> > Mark, > Well we all know that to go faster you need to get partially off the seat to > take a corner, somebody who can do this is likely to have around 30% more > speed than the guy who stays on his seat, wondering what the next thought of > the front tyre is going to be :) And you also need plenty of weight > forward, under acceleration everything shifts back and you really got to > keep that front tyre loaded as much as poss. I've saved two tank slappers > caused by a combination of too much speed on shoddy road quality in the last > 100 miles on my bike, and it is seriously worrying when its happening. But > getting to the point, as somebody who is very accustomed to fast lap times > and close racing in GPL (and who was on the Papyrus test team in fact for > this product), I'm very aware of some of the physics complexities that are > involved. My question to you is similar to John's comment, with my cynical > British hat on, that so many developers have hyped their physics (and/or AI) > compared to the other products and within minutes of trying them, for one > reason or another, I am left feeling totally dissatisfied. The problem is > the *** bikers, drivers, racers whatever amongst us have been spoiled > by the talent of the Papyrus team in their ability to create awesome > physics, control routines and computer AI, that virtually everything else > leaves us cold. My concern is that the EA Superbike game didn't sell > particularly well, and that in my opinion contains "ok" physics, probably > the best bike physics available to the public, but to somebody who enjoys > real biking, it is still very limited as far as recreating the real > experience. Sadly, I honestly believe that the GPL engine adapted to a bike > simulator would be almost impossible to use - therefore difficult to sell... > and canned "arcade-style" physics featuring wonderful pre-programmed spins, > slides, or in the case of bikes, low-sides, high-sides, whatever) just won't > impress me at all. The delight of the GPL engine is that it is always > manipulating the many attributes of the car as a result of some fantastic > calculations of the player inputs, the vehicle and its surroundings. What > the car does is always the sum of everything occuring around it, not the > other way around. Anyway, enough rambling on, but if you're still reading > all this, good luck with your product - I am a natural cynic, but that only > increases the curiosity I have in all the new products - I'm certainly very > eager to try it and of course I'm looking forward to be impressed :) > All the best, > Mike (Yamaha R6)

Trouble with the Sidewinder is that it is too easy to twist the stick whilst leaning it over. This is a nightmare in games like Mechwarrior 3 so I would hate to see how GP500 wpould go with it. I think a thumb controlled analogue input to replace the hat on top of the joystick would be practical.

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> > You know what might be interesting, is a bike sim that supports two > > joysticks - one used for gas/brake and turning, the other used for > > leaning in any direction. > I always felt that a simple third axis like on the MS Sidewinder joysticks > (the tilt pivot action) would be a great tool to do such a thing. Turn the > joystick on it's axis into corners to lean, and left/right to turn the front > wheel in that direction. > -- > -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> > -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ > -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ > -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. > -- May the Downforce be with you... > "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Don't think my wife would let me have one in the lounge room!

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> > You'd also need to be quite skilled to make your two hands perform > > completely unnatural movements like that, with the degree of precision > you'd > > need - not sure I could do it! I'd certainly consider some kind of > > dedicated controller though, perhaps a knee attachment of some sort since > > much of the work you do on a bike can be with your knees gripping the > > tank... but it'd have to be one hell of a physics simulation to make me > > splash out on buying something like that. > Grab one of the arcade cycle games with and patch it through the gameport. > ;) It'd be really cool, but hardly feasible I'd assume...:)

Whats the maximum lag time for the game to be playable over the internet? I assume it will be a few months before Australia got a local AMA Superbike server.

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> > You know what might be interesting, is a bike sim that supports two > > joysticks - one used for gas/brake and turning, the other used for > > leaning in any direction. [...] > You don't have long to wait to try this out. > -MSM > -- > __________________________________________________________________________ > Mark S. Miller "Be regular and orderly in your life, > Director of Design that you may be *** and original > Motorsport Simulations in your work." > [link lost in import]

A goos loud "OH Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiittttttttt........" fromthe rider would be fun as well!

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> When playing EA Superbike you can tell you about to eat pavement when > The smoke starts coming from the tires. But sound and smoke would be > Awesome. The tire screeching could get louder before you eat it. > GP500 looks to be the winner not GP500ccm. Party on>>>> > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

That is a big problem. But if the interface supports assigning leaning to an axis you could always use feet-based rudder pedals. Joe McGinn ========================================== Staff Writer for the Sports *** Network [link lost in import: /***.com/] ==========================================

I agree with you. Im having a hard time with X-Wing Alliance using the twist axis. Everything can be fixed by adding a nice dead-zone for this axis. I have done test and when I lean my stick I normally twist the axis in average 3-5degrees. So if I had a 6degree dead-zone, everything should be perfect. I do not see a problem here at all. -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank> -- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/ -- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/ -- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

On Wed, 23 Jun 1999 22:51:57 +0100, "Mike Laskey" >I'd certainly consider some kind of >dedicated controller though, perhaps a knee attachment of some sort since >much of the work you do on a bike can be with your knees gripping the >tank... Ooo-er! This of course would open the doors to a whole new generation of more realistic Leisure Suit Larry games... Cheers! John

>Ooo-er! This of course would open the doors to a whole new generation >of more realistic Leisure Suit Larry games... I'm sure you'll be first to volunteer for the test team ;-) Mike.

Larry is less likely to fall off though!

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> On Wed, 23 Jun 1999 22:51:57 +0100, "Mike Laskey" > >I'd certainly consider some kind of > >dedicated controller though, perhaps a knee attachment of some sort since > >much of the work you do on a bike can be with your knees gripping the > >tank... > Ooo-er! This of course would open the doors to a whole new generation > of more realistic Leisure Suit Larry games... > Cheers! > John

That would be really COooooL... > A goos loud "OH Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiittttttttt........" fromthe rider would > be fun as well! > > When playing EA Superbike you can tell you about to eat pavement when > > The smoke starts coming from the tires. But sound and smoke would be > > Awesome. The tire screeching could get louder before you eat it. > > GP500 looks to be the winner not GP500ccm. Party on>>>> > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > > Share what you know. Learn what you don't. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

We run a T3 line right to uuNet. Right now one of our beta testers in the Netherlands gets around 150ms pings. -MSM -- __________________________________________________________________________ Mark S. Miller "Be regular and orderly in your life, Director of Design that you may be *** and original Motorsport Simulations in your work." [link lost in import]