GPL-Patch, just to put this clear (quite angry)

ok, I've read enough of some ppl's post by now, and I want to straighten something out: This is called a free market-system in which we live, consisting of 2 basic objects: Vendors and customers. When a customer buys something from a vendor, he expects that the item he has bought is of good quality, corresponds to the newest state of the art technique and is functioning properly as advertised. For example, I buy a car and do not expect it to have an engine built 10 years ago, eccept if u buy a US-car....sorry, just couldn't resist :)) , I do not expect the steering-wheel to fall off and I do not expect it to have any hidden faults. If there is something wrong with it, I go back to my dealer and get it repaired *immediately*, otherwise I get my money back. Same applies to a TV, a washing-machine, a toaster and a *** (OTOH.....maybe not?). The only place where this system doesn't seem to function as it should is the software-industry. They get away with selling faulty ***by the millions, earning billions and making jokes about the stupid customers who don't even really protest (I mean *protest*, not a bit of that casual complaining we are seeing in reality). Now some of our fellow-racers (NOTHING personel will follow here! Don't misunderstand me please, this NG seems to be *very*sensible ATM) go about saying we should thank Papyrus for supplying us with a patch instead of "whining" (I've been told doing so) about it. We should be grateful, if not fall on our knees due to this masterful piece of software-jewelery to which Papyrus was not obliged of releasing in the first place. What kind of an attitude is that!? This is crazy (I could have said bull-sh** but I didn't)! I spent 79,- DM for GPL after having tested the Demo, read several tests in magazines and read this NG. When it says this game...sorry Simulation is fitted with 20-player-network-support, I *expect* exactly that, if I don't get it, I take it back to my dealer and get it fixed. Period. If Grafix don't work right, same thing, I don't care who's fault it is, I want it repaired. And if I see a blonde girl sitting in row 4 of the Silverstone-Granstand on the package and it's not there when I actually race there, I want her implemented! It's as easy as that. This fix has taken almost a year now, imagine your car standing in the garage for a year being fixed! Maybe not all of what I say can be transferred from a car to a software, but it's about the basics! Another argument of some posters here is the fact that Randy Cassidy did this patch on his own in his spare time. This is extremely honorable on the part of Randy and also *my* thanks to him, also to Alison and the other volunteers, Larry and Jack who made and will make this Simulation experience a breakthrough, I have absolutely nothing to say against that, but it doesn't get to the point saying we should stop whining because of that. Folks, now a line where you can bash me, flame me, whatever you want, maybe I don't find the right words, anyway, try to read between the lines and interpret this correctly: On the contrary, Papyrus seemed to make it easy for themselves by finding someone "stupid enough" to do this thing for free (dunno the insider-facts, this is simply based upon what I've read in this NG). Assuming this is true or comes near the truth, it's up to Papyrus to get some ppl employed to get this thing to work 100%, yes 100%. It's also no argument saying Papyrus is too busy developing new products, or to say GPL didn't sell good enough to invest anymore efforts into it, that's just simply not the way a market should work. It works only when there are enough ppl complaining, nagging and whining over and over again................... your turn :) Markus

On Mon, 12 Jul 1999 21:32:45 +0200, Huh? I have been -driving- GPL for one year, while yours is in the garage. -- * rrevved at mindspring dot com * unit.26 - s.p.u.t.u.m. * http://www.cabal.net * http://www.sputum.com

I thought there was a line where it proposes to read between the lines........ go on :) Markus

Now you've gone and done it: Right on, so far. Now, you just said it. Papy was not obligated to issue this. Read on... Don't we all?.... I don't recall Papy including her in the published spec's.... If you let GPL 1.0.0.0 sit unused for a year, just waiting on the blonde girl patch, you certainly have missed a lot of fun both online and offline. that. I am sure that position will make Randy just fall all over himself trying to get a patch patch designed and issued. for free Did Papy commission Randy to do this for free? I doubt that. More likely, if he did it pro bono it was to reach just what you are after - everything working as advertised. So sue Papy. They will fix it if they want to. Think about how much better GPL is than the real live ***on the market being sold as sims. Go pick on EA, Microsoft, Sony, and the rest of the companies that don't even try to build a very realistic sim, but just build plastic toys with great graphics in a pretty cardboard box with a funky web site. Papyrus is certainly not everything it could be. However, it looks like it is one of the few development companies that really cares about the sim racer, and tries to build what we ask for. Whining and throwing a tantrum will get you nothing but flamed and disregarded. If you want to see GPL work the way you say, then stop bashing the developers and beta testers, and try working with them for a change. They certainly aren't going to do any favors just for you with your attitude. You want that blonde girl in the stands? Then communicate with the designers and the graphics enhancers. You just might get your wish that way. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

Hi all, Markus, I have red your thoughts very carefully. Some thoughts are true, about some we could dispute (in peace:)). < or to say GPL didn't sell good enough to invest anymore efforts into it, that's just simply not the way a market should work. It works only when there are enough ppl complaining, nagging and whining over and over again...................> But this seems to be the way some companies work. Remember EASports and SBK. I have written some letters to them, that they should try to fix the major bugs in that game. But till today I haven't got an answer. Sad, but true. Papy had tried to fix some bugs. Maybe not carefull enough, but it was a first(?) try. Cheers Dirk --------------------------------------------- http://www.simracinggermany.de http://members.tripod.de/dmu

Well, other than the fact that GPL was in fact one of the most bug free games that have shipped in the last year or maybe even couple of years. It really did NOT need a patch, a fix or anything else. Randy, on his own time, put in the effort to try and fix a few things that could use some tweaking, add in other new stuff like dedicated servers and FF and release that patch as VALUE ADDED. Don't like the value added stuff? Don't use it. If you had that much complaints with GPL during the past year, you should have returned the game, period.

I get my car to a garage to get the steering-wheel fixed, they are incapable of doing so, instead they build in a Radio for free. Your turn. I love my wife, but I have so many complaints about her (and vice-versa), should I return her? cya :) Markus

>< or to say GPL didn't sell good enough to invest anymore efforts into >it, that's just simply not the way a market should work. It works only >when there are enough ppl complaining, nagging and whining over and over >again...................> >But this seems to be the way some companies work. Remember EASports and I can't speak for European companies. But in the US, the only things that ever get fixed 100% at the manufacturers expense are cars and medication. And then only if it's a matter of safety. Other than that eveything else is pretty much "We tried our best, but too God damn bad if you don't like it." Most things happen to be ok products, but for those that aren't, that seems to be the attitude. About the only thing that I can think of where direct consumer protest has worked was in killing off DivX. -- | "Instead of letting the moon be the Bill Mette | gateway to our future, we have let Enteract, Chicago | it become a brief chapter in our

This "auto" analogy doesn't work. Another bogus analogy, unless you bought your wife through a mail-order magazine. If I have a product which is either defective, of the same value as a piece of software around $50 US (which is the only currency that counts, right? :), etc, or that I don't find that it does what it says, I return it. Period. Now, if you paid $20,000 for a license to run a GPL dedicated server, which is closer to the figure of the cost of a lot of cars, then yes you should be able to expect the company to fix the software. But not a $50 piece of software whose problems in the original retail were very very small and minor. The patch is a "gift" so to speak and adds value to it. Don't like it, don't use it. Like it, but it doesn't work? Report the problems you are having to the appriopriate forum and let others know, but don't keep ***ing about it.

Bill, But thats because it was such a fundamentally bad idea.. :) That and I don't think anyone likes Circuit City anymore. :)

>> I get my car to a garage to get the steering-wheel fixed, they are >incapable >> of doing so, instead they build in a Radio for free. >> Your turn. >This "auto" analogy doesn't work. It does for me. He's making the point that software companies routinely group both fixes and new features into what are labeled "patches." Microsoft is the worst at this with their NT "service packs." -- | "Instead of letting the moon be the Bill Mette | gateway to our future, we have let Enteract, Chicago | it become a brief chapter in our

On Mon, 12 Jul 1999 21:32:45 +0200, "Markus Stiepel" >When a customer buys >something from a vendor, he expects that the item he has bought is of good >quality, corresponds to the newest state of the art technique and is >functioning properly as advertised. I'm not sure every customer expects every product to correspond to the newest state of the art technique and to function exactly as advertise. In Utopia perhaps, but we are in the real world. When I buy something new I expect there to be something wrong with it until proven otherwise, and usually it turns out to be justified. Cheers! John

On Mon, 12 Jul 1999 22:56:38 +0200, "Markus Stiepel" >I love my wife, but I have so many complaints about her (and vice-versa), >should I return her? Was she newest state of the art technology, and operating exactly as advertised? :-) Cheers! John

I'm not the sharpest or smartest person around but I don't think there's to many analogy's you can use with the software industry.I agree totally when you buy a product it should work 100%,however there are so many different kind's of system's with all sort's of custom setup's, overclocked cpu's,tweaked driver's,different hardware setup's etc. I would think this would make it much more difficult to create a product to run flawlessly out of the box on every single person's computer.I had no problem's with GPL accept for some lockup's in the begining but that was due to V2 drivers.This is just the way I see it,maybe I'm wrong,I just think GPL was the most bug free and greatest sim made. And thank's to all of those who have taken the time to make it even better!. Happy racing !! Buster

That's why consumerism in a democratic society is so *good*, Bill. If you were living in any other sort of society not only would your car or medicine not work in the first place but you'd never get it fixed anyway!!

Quoted text (18 lines)

> >< or to say GPL didn't sell good enough to invest anymore efforts into > >it, that's just simply not the way a market should work. It works only > >when there are enough ppl complaining, nagging and whining over and over > >again...................> > >But this seems to be the way some companies work. Remember EASports and > I can't speak for European companies. But in the US, the only things > that ever get fixed 100% at the manufacturers expense are cars and > medication. And then only if it's a matter of safety. Other than that > eveything else is pretty much "We tried our best, but too God damn bad if > you don't like it." Most things happen to be ok products, but for those > that aren't, that seems to be the attitude. > About the only thing that I can think of where direct consumer protest > has worked was in killing off DivX. > -- > | "Instead of letting the moon be the > Bill Mette | gateway to our future, we have let > Enteract, Chicago | it become a brief chapter in our

Only the last item is expected - to work as advertised. The US market is open and very competitive, only a few foreign companies do well there. Renault, Fiat, Rover, et al, couldn't cut it. Audi almost pulled out a few years ago, and Volkswagon were very shakey for a while. Also, the consumers tastes are quite different in the US than most anywhere else. Maybe they don't need the latest engine, substantially the same as the previous engine, to feel good about themselves. The software companies get away with it because of people like you and I who buy the stuff and don't return it when it is defective. You did return GPL 1.0, right? Consider this: if the software companies wait until all bugs are removed, they will never ship a single product and you will now be using a really nice fully debugged version of DOS 1.0. As an interesting aside, the open source concept with Linux is another approach to getting a quality product, some might say it is a better approach. Personally, I think GPL 1.0 didn't need fixing. I like the addition of Force Feedback support though. It has been one of the best software products that I have ever purchased. The latest version of F1RS has more bugs, with the ump*** patches that used to come along until Ubisoft started to call the patches MGP and demand money for them. It really doesn't matter how you think the market SHOULD work. Bottom line: GPL 1.1 has some positives, and some negatives. I can't wait for GPL 1.2 now - same features as 1.1 but without the timing problems, and maybe a different solution to the slo-mo problem. Whining won't get the job done, and it makes you feel worse. Encourage guys like Randy Cassidy to improve the product and offer your full unconditional support to them and the other developers. Not just the core GPL guys, but VROC, SpyBoy, GPaL, etc.. too. Keith.

Nothing to add, all correct, but: Why not make a great product even just a little bit better?:) cya! Markus

They gotcha already! cya! Markus

She appeared to be, but she tricked me, and now I can't get loose :)) Salute! Markus

Bill Mette got 10 points, zero for you. Who said I didn't? :)) Seriously, you got zero for this one too, the analogy lies in love, and you don't return somthing you love, got it? Your favorite today, ey? :)) That's what I did in my initial post, I just didn't add my specs for reasons u know by now, but who's ***ing? Have a nice day! Markus

Nope, *I* didn't say it, read correctly. wow, I knew this NG is a bit sensible ATM, but *that* sensible? My comparison is a bit exaggerated (sp?), but you know what I mean...... hope so :) We both don't know that. Thats not the point, Terry, comparing it to the other crap, *GPL* is the sim we are talking about and I wanna get a great game which I love become even better, and it will not get better when ppl go around worshipping everything which Papy releases, we need criticism and suggestions, as you said, but as soon as you do that, you're being called a whiner, I dunno why......... The help you are talking about includes a list-up of what you think should be altered or repaired, not every1 is capable of saying:"Change byte 86576 to 9756764533" et voila. And, BTW, that's not my job as a customer. My job is nagging, nagging, nagging until the Vendor hears me and does something about my nagging. Sure there are different ways of nagging, some are more, some are less diplomatic, in the end, they all aim at the same target. I will be releasing an update on my "Some more thoughts on VROC-Racing....[Version1.4]" here as soon as this chaos has settled down a bit and things go their normal way again, check this NG to see if you can still find it (I doubt it tho, was quite a few weeks ago) Until then Lets get to work! Markus

Not really. You are comparing a $10000+ purchase with a $50 purchase. Not at all. This is something you purchased versus something you agreed to share life together. That GPL box had no say in whether you purchased it or not. Maybe we take it too much for granted. It works, and its appropriate. Its not like someone is putting a gun to your head to use it. :) I've seen a small to fair share of races being run with the 1.0 version.

Maybe it's not the way it *should* work, but it's the way it does work. In the real world our sim enjoyment depends almost entirely on the numbers on some excel spreadsheet on a Sierra accountant's PC. We have no right to expect support for GPL, we can only hope Papyrus are allowed to deliver it. Andrew McP... proud owner of a sense of perspective and the best damned sim in the history of the PC :o)

Interesting stuff snipped..... IMHO GPL was the most bug free program I have ever purchased. IMHO it didn't need patching, it was good enough (for me). Papy *have* patched it, and thats a bonus. For some people (me) it appears to work ok. For others it doesn't? I'm sure they will try to fix these problesm as quickly as possible. If you were not satisfied with GPL, why did you not return it before now? If you don't like the patched version, why not simply go back to the original version (via a GPL re-install)? No-one is forcing you to use the patch. You appear to be a very hard person to please? What does all this whining achieve? Nothing in my view. If you have a *specific* problem with GPL, post details here and someone, somewhere, will probably try and sort it out for you. Simple really. *Peter* 8-)

Markus, Since this steering wheel fix (should be called upgrade) isn't under warranty and actually you are not willing to pay for it (just a suggestion - please don't blame me), you should be quite lucky to get a radio for free. Your actual steering wheel should be fine until your cars next generation is available on the market, which has a slightly better steering ex works. Jens :-) On Mon, 12 Jul 1999 22:56:38 +0200, "Markus Stiepel" >I get my car to a garage to get the steering-wheel fixed, they are incapable >of doing so, instead they build in a Radio for free. >Your turn. --------------------------------------------- Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address

This "state of the art" thing is really true and can be claimed in court - at least in Germany. But what I really don't know: Which part of GPL is not state-of-the-art or functioning as advertised? If it's about graphic- or sound-problems with single Hardware-products, we should blame those manufacturers, who bring out products with faulty drivers. Jens

Quoted text (7 lines)

>On Mon, 12 Jul 1999 21:32:45 +0200, "Markus Stiepel" >>When a customer buys >>something from a vendor, he expects that the item he has bought is of good >>quality, corresponds to the newest state of the art technique and is >>functioning properly as advertised.

<snip> --------------------------------------------- Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address

Great post, Terry. My 7,6 sen (2 cts. changed to malaysian money): I bought GPL, IMO the best and most bug-free racing sim ever. All initial troubles with Vodoo?, sound,... have been fixed very fast by hobby-programers for free - thanks to you all. GPL was touched up by addons - for free. I never regretted the purchase of that game - what's about you, Markus? Don't tell me, that you didn't use and enjoy the sim because of ????? Jens BTW: the blonde girl is a nice idea, should be picked up by the programers

Quoted text (7 lines)

>Now you've gone and done it: >> ok, I've read enough of some ppl's post by now, and I want to >straighten

<snip> --------------------------------------------- Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address

Come on, welcome to the real world here, Markus. But basically what you state...it's a sad thing for any of us --especially a stickler like myself--to have to admit that you don't always get what you have a claim to. In the end it all depends on how service-oriented the particular company that you deal with finally is and that's all. However, i found that sometimes the way you address the other side can make a significant difference in what you get in the end. -- Greg Hellmann cause when the feelin's right i'm gonna race all night

> I'm not sure every customer expects every product to correspond to the > newest state of the art technique and to function exactly as > advertise. In Utopia perhaps, but we are in the real world. > When I buy something new I expect there to be something wrong with it > until proven otherwise, and usually it turns out to be justified. John...so much the truth. As a matter of fact I often find myself pathetically swapping the boxes that contain the products back and forth when in the shop (specially with PC components). All in the desperate hope not to grab a box with a flawed product. :) -Greg

> I can't speak for European companies. But in the US, the only things >that ever get fixed 100% at the manufacturers expense are cars and >medication. And then only if it's a matter of safety. Other than that >eveything else is pretty much "We tried our best, but too God damn bad if >you don't like it." Most things happen to be ok products, but for those >that aren't, that seems to be the attitude. But then, as a consumer in the US, you can sue any company for a trillion fantastillions of dollars and even get away with it. Hey, here's a thought: Papy, I'm going to sue you on grounds of a) selling an ***ive product (which leads to loss of sleep) without giving a warning, b) almost ruining my social life and, c) robbing me of my peace of mind by announcing a patch and not delivering aforementioned patch for several months. My lawyer (it's the same one the Simpsons employ) informs me that we can go for $50 million in damages. I would accept one million, however, and drop the charges. Alternatively, you could produce a CART sim with GPL physics, which I would even *pay* $49.95 for. :) In a more serious vein: I agree that patches for defective software are something that producers/developers should provide free of charge. Unfortunately, there is no way to force them to do this. If a software product does not meet your expectations, you can return it (in most cases) - but that's it. If you buy the product and keep it, you are not legally entitled to upgrades, patches etc. Read the license agreements on your software, and you will see that you're not legally entitled to *anything*. ;) Now, since this is the case, it's the free decision of any developer to provide patches, or not to provide patches. A developer might think "We will sell more products in the future if we invest some money now and patch our old product. The consumers will remember that we care for their interests." Or they might think: "Only a few people even know our name and reputation. Sales depend on marketing and licenses, not on our reputation among some dedicated fans. We can't afford to lose money here, especially if the competition doesn't either." Or they try to find a middle way and provide a patch without investing very much money. This may not seem fair, or right, but it's part of the way the economy works. Therefore, I don't even see an incongruity between thanking Randy et al for the patch, and asking (politely, but firmly) to patch the patch. Thanking Papyrus and the individuals who actually wrote the patch for their work - which they were not legally obliged to do - seems just in good taste. Asking Papyrus and Sierra to patch their products shows that we are interested and might induce them to provide patches in the future. If they come to the conclusion that this is economically viable. -- Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome.

May I add my 2 cents (again)? I agree that constructive criticism is needed. I also agree that people who criticize aspects of GPL and the patch should not be called whiners (although some of them do indeed sound like whiners). Well, this really depends. As I said in a previous post, Papyrus are under no obligation to patch their products. There is no law, either in the US, Germany, or elsewhere, that forces a software producer to patch programs. (Maybe there is such a law - I'm no lawyer - but I would be greatly surprised.) Therefore, Papyrus have to decide whether or not to make a patch. Ultimately, they have to base the decision on money. Will they make more money by providing the patch (through increased sales of GPL or some future products) than by not providing a patch (by saving expenses in manpower)? Now, if it is really true that Randy Cassidy made the patch in his spare time, then *nagging* will have, if any, an adverse effect: the company Papyrus had already decided that making a patch was not economically viable. The individual Randy Cassidy decided to make a patch anyway. A company might interpret nagging as a demand by the customer which needs to be heeded. An individual might interpret nagging as a sign that he should spend more time with friends and family in the future, instead of making patches for ungrateful strangers. ;) -- Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome.

> BTW: the blonde girl is a nice idea, should be picked up by the > programers What? The idea or the blonde? :-) Paul -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nortel, London Road, Harlow, Essex. CM17 9NA

> Now, if you paid $20,000 for a license to run a GPL dedicated server, which > is closer to the figure of the cost of a lot of cars, then yes you should be > able to expect the company to fix the software. But not a $50 piece of > software....... Baloney. Like my momma used to say, "Rip 10 million people off for .01 and you have $100,000." Lets see, at $50 a pop that works out to.............. Point being, although I *love* GPL, the sentiment in general is absolutely correct. To lay down & take it you-know-where with products that bear no resemblance to their hype or sometimes their own screenshots on the box is ridiculous. (Remember CPR & ABC Indy Racing, for example?) And most places I know of won't take back opened software. Exchange it at best. And if there's no other faulty software you're interested in? You have no recourse, my friend. They *already* have your money. In my case, I'm not sure this really applies to GPL, but others may very well feel that way. So be it. -- Chuck Kandler #70 K&S Racing http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/thepits/195 The box said "Windows 95 or better", so I installed LINUX!

Let the progammers pick up the idea and leave the girl to me :-))) Jens On Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:54:41 +0100, "Venkatesh, Paul >> BTW: the blonde girl is a nice idea, should be picked up by the >> programers >What? The idea or the blonde? :-) > Paul --------------------------------------------- Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address