New Force Feedback page at Eagle Woman's GPL site

I've published a new page about Force Feedback, with my impressions of the Logitech and Microsoft Force Feedback wheels, and tips on setting up the Logitech wheel. Also included is a discussion of the various settings that affect Force Feedback wheels, to help readers fine tune their own installation, and some notes on why GPL's Force Feedback implementation differs from that of most other racing software. I am finding GPL with the Logitech wheel to be an exciting experience. The addition of force effects to GPL's already marvelous physics makes a tremendous difference in the quality of immersion in the simulated racing world. Also, the subtle forces transmitted from the front tires are proving to be very valuable information about what the car is doing. This helps me to drive more smoothly and closer to the limit, with less drama and less effort. I'm very e***d about this new capability. It's almost like getting a whole new sim! To see my new Force Feedback page, go to [link lost in import] and view the News page. Or choose Help, then Controllers, and then Force Feedback. Alison [link lost in import]

Wow, great article! It was really time, that you wrote something about setting up the GPL FF (esp. the LWFF) :-) I've bought a LWFF 2 weeks ago and since then I'm playing with the parameters, but I couldn't find the 'perfect' ones (reminds me of trying to find the 'perfect' Lotus setup... :-). Your suggestion of setting the damping in the control panel to zero brought me a large step closer to the perfect feel. The forces are much better defined and the wheel is much easier to turn. (silly me, I had set damping to 150%...). The only drawback is, that the wheel is very keen to oscillate on the straights now (and therefore decreases straight line stability quite dramatically). With my old settings I could run a zero toe Lotus with steering ratio 1:12 and fully linear steering and zero dead zone without problems. Now I have to put in a little bit non-linearity and about 1:16 steering ratio. A word to dead zone and DXTweak: I've tried DXTweak also and found that it changes absolutely nothing in GPL (I've even tried 50% dead zone for fun, but it didn't have any effect on GPL). The only thing that influenced dead zone (and linearity) is the sensitivity setting in the Logitech Profiler. Since the 'medium' setting is non-linear and seems to give some dead zone, I'm not using the Profiler anymore (removed the auto start in the registry) and now have the wheel linear and with zero dead zone. I just wonder, if anybody else has noticed this... Anyway, thanx for your tips, Alison! Peter Vienna, Austria

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> I've published a new page about Force Feedback, with my impressions of > the Logitech and Microsoft Force Feedback wheels, and tips on setting up > the Logitech wheel. Also included is a discussion of the various > settings that affect Force Feedback wheels, to help readers fine tune > their own installation, and some notes on why GPL's Force Feedback > implementation differs from that of most other racing software. > I am finding GPL with the Logitech wheel to be an exciting experience. > The addition of force effects to GPL's already marvelous physics makes a > tremendous difference in the quality of immersion in the simulated > racing world. Also, the subtle forces transmitted from the front tires > are proving to be very valuable information about what the car is doing. > This helps me to drive more smoothly and closer to the limit, with less > drama and less effort. > I'm very e***d about this new capability. It's almost like getting a > whole new sim! > To see my new Force Feedback page, go to > [link lost in import] and view the News page. Or > choose Help, then Controllers, and then Force Feedback. > Alison > [link lost in import]

Thanks for your support of force feedback and it's inclusion in Grand Prix Legends. I would imagine that your opinion carries more weight than mine, perhaps you could write ECCI, Thomas, SRC, and Ball Racing and tell them that a high quality, precision force feedback wheel would sell. I love my Logitech Wingman, but an ECCI with FF would be something that I would purchase in a heartbeat. The same goes for Thomas and SRC. -Andrew

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> I've published a new page about Force Feedback, with my impressions of > the Logitech and Microsoft Force Feedback wheels, and tips on setting up > the Logitech wheel. Also included is a discussion of the various > settings that affect Force Feedback wheels, to help readers fine tune > their own installation, and some notes on why GPL's Force Feedback > implementation differs from that of most other racing software. > I am finding GPL with the Logitech wheel to be an exciting experience. > The addition of force effects to GPL's already marvelous physics makes a > tremendous difference in the quality of immersion in the simulated > racing world. Also, the subtle forces transmitted from the front tires > are proving to be very valuable information about what the car is doing. > This helps me to drive more smoothly and closer to the limit, with less > drama and less effort. > I'm very e***d about this new capability. It's almost like getting a > whole new sim! > To see my new Force Feedback page, go to > [link lost in import] and view the News page. Or > choose Help, then Controllers, and then Force Feedback. > Alison > [link lost in import]

Has anybody figured out some reasonable GPL core settings for the InterAct V4 force feedback wheel? (IMHO, the wheel, is quite good, only drawback is that the pedals cannot be configured for separate axes. I also considered the Logitech wheel, but it is still pretty expensive over here.) I fiddled around with the core.ini settings a bit and also felt that higher max_torque and lower damping produced better results. If noone else has worked out something for this wheel yet, I could do some more systematic experiments on the basis of your findings, but currently I am waiting for a new patch that resolves my slowmo probs (yes, I am one of the few unhappy ones ;-). It would really be nice if someone could collect these infos for different FF controllers on a website (I am sure you are aware that these issues have already been discussed in several GPL forums). Maybe it would also be helpful if Papy could provide some more details on how the FF params (especially the latency value) are used internally. Ciao, Albert -- Dr. Albert Gr"af WWW: http://www.musikwissenschaft.uni-mainz.de/~ag

Very interesting and well made page! But what should I do? I have a MS force feedback wheel, and Eagle Woman writes that it is nearly useless with GPL! After having read her article my F3-Ferrari laptimes in Monza went 2 to 3 seconds slower! And this is no joke! The wheel became "worse"..., just by the power of words... ;-/ Any consolation? Is somebody happy with MSFF in GPL? Should I change my new wheel to a Logitech? (When I was choosing my FF-wheel, the pedals of Logitech made me take the MS. If I buy a Logitech, can I use the good MS pedals?) Arto

I'd hang on to it. I think you're suffering from the "there's always something better out there" syndrome. I have it too, which is why I want an ECCI with force feedback. Alison simply stated that in her OPINION that the LWFF is a better GPL wheel. As an LWFF owner I agree with her, but that's not to say that there are hundreds of people here who would disagree with me. From what I've read the Microsoft wheel is a good solid wheel with many fine points. It could be that in another 6 months, we LWFF owners will be complaining about the pots while you're tearing around Monza and enjoying yourself. -Andrew Maybe you should spend a week playing GPL with the keyboard, then boot back up with the wheel. I'm sure you'll think "this is one fine piece of machinery!".

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> Very interesting and well made page! > But what should I do? I have a MS force feedback wheel, and Eagle Woman > writes that it is nearly useless with GPL! After having read her article > my F3-Ferrari laptimes in Monza went 2 to 3 seconds slower! And this is > no joke! The wheel became "worse"..., just by the power of words... ;-/ > Any consolation? Is somebody happy with MSFF in GPL? Should I change > my new wheel to a Logitech? (When I was choosing my FF-wheel, the pedals > of Logitech made me take the MS. If I buy a Logitech, can I use the good > MS pedals?) > Arto

There are many guys I race with that have MSFF wheels and have no problems. They think it's the best wheel and are happy with it. They are very very fast. Take a break, drink an ale. Then go race. >Very interesting and well made page! >But what should I do? I have a MS force feedback wheel, and Eagle Woman >writes that it is nearly useless with GPL! After having read her article >my F3-Ferrari laptimes in Monza went 2 to 3 seconds slower! And this is >no joke! The wheel became "worse"..., just by the power of words... ;-/ >Any consolation? Is somebody happy with MSFF in GPL? Should I change >my new wheel to a Logitech? (When I was choosing my FF-wheel, the pedals >of Logitech made me take the MS. If I buy a Logitech, can I use the good >MS pedals?) >Arto

I love my MS FF wheel, works great in GPL. I cannot drive well enough in GPL to notice anything but better lap times. Best, Gavel > Very interesting and well made page! > But what should I do? I have a MS force feedback wheel, and Eagle Woman > writes that it is nearly useless with GPL! After having read her article > my F3-Ferrari laptimes in Monza went 2 to 3 seconds slower!

Hello Arto, I've had an MSFF wheel for several months now. I needed to get another wheel for my Son's computer, and after reading all the glowing praise for the LWFF I ordered one from Egghead a couple of months ago ($112 at the time). I have to say that I've been quite disappointed by it. It certainly looks better than the MS wheel, but for me, the MS product just works better. It has digital encoding, doesn't have the funky reset/recalibrate factor, has more accurate centering, better pedals and a more consistent overall feel. I would imagine the CPU usage greatly depends on the CPU and sound card, both of my systems are very fast with SBLive cards and there's no percievable difference when switching between the wheels. As far as GPL goes, I really don't have the time to devote to it to be an expert. I'm sure Alison knows 100 times what I do about it. I'll give her config settings a try with the LWFF, perhaps it will reduce the regret I feel for buying it rather than another MSFF wheel. I must also say that I'm no MS fan. I would in principal prefer a product from another company. In this case the product just works better for me. Best Wishes, Scott

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> Very interesting and well made page! > But what should I do? I have a MS force feedback wheel, and Eagle Woman > writes that it is nearly useless with GPL! After having read her article > my F3-Ferrari laptimes in Monza went 2 to 3 seconds slower! And this is > no joke! The wheel became "worse"..., just by the power of words... ;-/ > Any consolation? Is somebody happy with MSFF in GPL? Should I change > my new wheel to a Logitech? (When I was choosing my FF-wheel, the pedals > of Logitech made me take the MS. If I buy a Logitech, can I use the good > MS pedals?) > Arto

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>Very interesting and well made page! >But what should I do? I have a MS force feedback wheel, and Eagle Woman >writes that it is nearly useless with GPL! After having read her article >my F3-Ferrari laptimes in Monza went 2 to 3 seconds slower! And this is >no joke! The wheel became "worse"..., just by the power of words... ;-/ >Any consolation? Is somebody happy with MSFF in GPL? Should I change >my new wheel to a Logitech? (When I was choosing my FF-wheel, the pedals >of Logitech made me take the MS. If I buy a Logitech, can I use the good >MS pedals?) >Arto

Arto, I too have a MSFF wheel,and I've set personal Best times at every track with it. While I don't dispute that the Logitech uses less cpu cycles,I've been able to maintain 36fps with all graphics on except cars only in the mirrors. I've only expected to use my MSFF wheel a year or two,until the next generation of FF wheels hits the market. As I feel that there will be great improvements. Joel Willstein

I agree. No problems with the MSFF wheel. After reading Alison's excellent article I do not doubt that she did, but ulitmately wondered whether she played with the full settings available with the MS wheel? Certainly I find that the wheel works very well with the MS settings turned to LOW for the FF, and centreing OFF, and then use the GPL ini file for the tuning. The castor 'effect' is there, the wheel is not notchy, and you get the full and smooth range of effects from the car going light over a bump, to a full blown jolt when it has ALL gone wrong! It is a pig however if you use the FULL MS settings. Steve > I too have a MSFF wheel,and I've set personal Best times at every track >with it. While I don't dispute that the Logitech uses less cpu cycles,I've >been able to maintain 36fps with all graphics on except cars only in the >mirrors. > I've only expected to use my MSFF wheel a year or two,until the next >generation of FF wheels hits the market. As I feel that there will be great >improvements. >Joel Willstein

I tried the settings Alison uses yesterday and I wasn't too pleased with them. I can't feel anything at all with these settings! I hardly feel my car breaking away in a corner, and when I drive full speed in a wall I also hardly feel anything. I heard a rumour that there are different versions of the LWFF available, this must be true cause I can't imagine anyone liking driving with these settings. So I experimented a bit and came to these settings, a combination of Alison and Eric's settings: First I did follow all tips on Alison's site (Profiler settings, Game control settings, and DXTweak settings). Then I used these settings in Core.ini: force_feedback_damping = 75.000000 force_feedback_latency = 0.020000 max_steering_torque = 65.000000000 I love driving with these settings. Oh, and the car setup you use has a big influence on the settings too. The sharp settings of Greger Huttu are really good for the arm muscles :) If anyone experienced the same dissapointing results with Alison's settings (allmost no ff) please let me know. I'm curious if I did something wrong or if there are different version of the LWFF indeed, so that the settings needed vary with every LWFF. Andre

I also found the steering torque setting Alison uses much to light for my liking. W/ Eric's 65 the steering seems "notchy" and my wrists actually get sore after the daily 30 min's of practise. Am still experimenting w/ the other 2 settings, but like the damping so far. (0 damping in profiler). Can't really tell the difference w/ the latency settings. Both Eric's and Alisons work fine for me (strange?) force_feedback_damping = 5.000000 ; Alison. Eric=65 force_feedback_latency = 0.020000 ; Alison. Eric=.225 max_steering_torque = 200.000000 ; Alison=330. Eric=65. greets, Johan Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

Hi guys, I'm just a newbie at most of this so I've been trying everything everyone suggests, looking for that magic combination. I'm slowly coming to the realization that you need to start somewhere and then experiment. I believe I was probably using something close to Eric's settings with the feeling that the Ferrari was very heavy although not really tiring. But I was felling the weight of the car in the esses at Mexico and the lightness in the wheel when the front tires lose their grip. When AH's new article appeared I read it and was thoroughly impressed with her explanation of those mysterious settings in the core.ini file. It all made sense to me. But when I tried her numbers, my reaction was exactly like Andre's. I felt nothing! I felt like the car had lightened up tremendously and I wasn't feeling FF at all. Didn't like it, so I went back to my original numbers. I think you just have to change these settings one at a time and see how it works for you. There are so many variables in all this, it seems that there's no way to predict how they will play out in one particular combination of wheel, PC setup, etc. Meanwhile what a great thing it is that GPL allows us to fine tune all these areas to experience what all too often for me seems to be so real. I forget I'm not really driving that Ferrari, however slow I am. BTW, I just placed an order for Nigel Nichols great pedals to compliment the LWFF. After playing around with using my joystick as a clutch to see if it really acted like a clutch versus the on/off action of a keyboard key, I decided that real pedals are the missing key to my slowness! Never give up! Gene

Gene, you also might want to look at Ricardo Nunnini's GPL site. He has a good section on setting up the LWFF in GPL. http://website.lineone.net/~richardn/Hardware.html don [|]-(_)-[|] >Hi guys, >I'm just a newbie at most of this so I've been trying everything everyone >suggests, looking for that magic combination. <snip>

Hi Johan, my 75 was indeed still a little bit too notchy. I tried your 200, but that gave me still to few ff. Now I've set it to 150. Ok, this is it, this is perfect. I do feel all the forces, while it isn;t overdone. I drove 10 laps with these settings on Monza, breaking my record on the 3rd lap and getting very close to other laps. The 75 setting really was a handicap on my driving after all. As the other guy said, not only is the ff in gpl without doubt the best ff in any game so far, but how great it is that we can fine-tune it so perfectly to our personal liking. Why don't all games offer this feature? On the other hand, why bother, GPL is the only sim I keep playing :) Alison, if you're reading this, I'm very curious if you tried the other settings suggested in this thread, and if you like it better than your own settings? With your settings I myself could hardly feel any ff. Same goes for Eric, after you tried the settings suggested here, don't you find your settings a little bit too notchy? Andre

Andre asks an interesting question here. Does anyone know if there are different versions of the Logitech FF wheel, one with more force than the other? I've wondered the same thing myself, because I can't see how anyone could even drive the car using Eric Cote's settings with my wheel; the forces are far too high. OTOH, Eric says he can't feel anything with my settings on his wheel. This strongly suggests that either there are different versions of the LWFF wheel being sold, or that a change in the most recent driver causes the wheel to produce more force. Does anyone know for sure? Alison Alison Remove the spam blocker NOSPAM to email me. http://eaglewoman.maximumspeed.com

Andre, I tried a number of settings, starting with Eric's. The results tend to make me wonder if there are different versions of the Logitech FF wheel, one with more force than the other. I've been wondering this since I tried Eric's settings and then worked out my own. I can't see how anyone could even drive the car using Eric Cote's settings with my wheel; the forces are far too high. OTOH, Eric says he can't feel anything with my settings on his wheel. This strongly suggests that either there are different versions of the LWFF wheel being sold, or that a change in the most recent Logitech driver causes the wheel to produce more force. Does anyone know for sure? Alison Remove the spam blocker NOSPAM to email me. http://eaglewoman.maximumspeed.com

The 3.20 and higher drivers do increase the amount of force. Logitech stated that the original drivers were only using between 60% to 75% of the possible torque of the motor. So if you're driver revision is pre 3.20, you may want to upgrade. Alison... Is there a story behind your inclusion in Sports Car GT? I've had this game for awhile and just noticed that you're listed as a driver in the GTQ series. I don't think it's due to any patch that I've installed. Or is it? -Andrew

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> >Alison, if you're reading this, I'm very curious if you tried the > >other settings suggested in this thread, and if you like it better > >than your own settings? With your settings I myself could hardly feel > >any ff. > >Same goes for Eric, after you tried the settings suggested here, don't > >you find your settings a little bit too notchy? > Andre, I tried a number of settings, starting with Eric's. The results > tend to make me wonder if there are different versions of the Logitech > FF wheel, one with more force than the other. > I've been wondering this since I tried Eric's settings and then worked > out my own. I can't see how anyone could even drive the car using Eric > Cote's settings with my wheel; the forces are far too high. OTOH, Eric > says he can't feel anything with my settings on his wheel. > This strongly suggests that either there are different versions of the > LWFF wheel being sold, or that a change in the most recent Logitech > driver causes the wheel to produce more force. > Does anyone know for sure? > Alison > Remove the spam blocker NOSPAM to email me. > http://eaglewoman.maximumspeed.com

I use 3.20, Eric and Alison use 3.25. Eric feels no ff with Alison's settings, so the driver version can't be the problem. I dnd't upgrade to 3.25 for 2 reasons, first I heard that nothing important has changed, only some features have been added for to-be-released new Logitec devices, and secondly if I go to the automically update option, the program tells me that no newer versions have been found. And on www.wingmanteam.com they still only have the 3.20 available for download. I don't like to open my wheel if it's not necessary, but does anyone know if there is something like a version number on the inner hardware of the wheel? Maybe we can compare our wheels that way... Andre On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 14:30:17 -0400, AndrewS

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>The 3.20 and higher drivers do increase the amount of force. Logitech >stated that the original drivers were only using between 60% to 75% of the >possible torque of the motor. So if you're driver revision is pre 3.20, you >may want to upgrade. >Alison... Is there a story behind your inclusion in Sports Car GT? I've had >this game for awhile and just noticed that you're listed as a driver in the >GTQ series. I don't think it's due to any patch that I've installed. Or is >it? >-Andrew >> >Alison, if you're reading this, I'm very curious if you tried the >> >other settings suggested in this thread, and if you like it better >> >than your own settings? With your settings I myself could hardly feel >> >any ff. >> >Same goes for Eric, after you tried the settings suggested here, don't >> >you find your settings a little bit too notchy? >> Andre, I tried a number of settings, starting with Eric's. The results >> tend to make me wonder if there are different versions of the Logitech >> FF wheel, one with more force than the other. >> I've been wondering this since I tried Eric's settings and then worked >> out my own. I can't see how anyone could even drive the car using Eric >> Cote's settings with my wheel; the forces are far too high. OTOH, Eric >> says he can't feel anything with my settings on his wheel. >> This strongly suggests that either there are different versions of the >> LWFF wheel being sold, or that a change in the most recent Logitech >> driver causes the wheel to produce more force. >> Does anyone know for sure? >> Alison >> Remove the spam blocker NOSPAM to email me. >> http://eaglewoman.maximumspeed.com

Alison, I posted my email to you before I read this message, so know I allready know your answer, thanks. I'm only still curious if Steve is going to update his 4w drift pages again. Andre

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>>Alison, if you're reading this, I'm very curious if you tried the >>other settings suggested in this thread, and if you like it better >>than your own settings? With your settings I myself could hardly feel >>any ff. >>Same goes for Eric, after you tried the settings suggested here, don't >>you find your settings a little bit too notchy? >Andre, I tried a number of settings, starting with Eric's. The results >tend to make me wonder if there are different versions of the Logitech >FF wheel, one with more force than the other. >I've been wondering this since I tried Eric's settings and then worked >out my own. I can't see how anyone could even drive the car using Eric >Cote's settings with my wheel; the forces are far too high. OTOH, Eric >says he can't feel anything with my settings on his wheel. >This strongly suggests that either there are different versions of the >LWFF wheel being sold, or that a change in the most recent Logitech >driver causes the wheel to produce more force. >Does anyone know for sure? >Alison >Remove the spam blocker NOSPAM to email me. >http://eaglewoman.maximumspeed.com