N3 - Realistic Expectations

The "be all - end all" for N3 will be its multiplayer support. We've been told not to expect the GPL physics but an overhauled N2 version. That is acceptable due to the fact that if its going to take a P4-1ghz machine to produce 30 fps offline then can you imagine what it will take online. Racing AI opponents is safe, cheap, and fun (for awhile). Once you've had a taste of online *** whether its DeathMatch Half-Life or NROS on TEN then its very hard to be drawn towards AI opponents. If Sierra/Papyrus has put together a solid multiplayer product with N3 then it will be a success. There will always be the desires for flipping, better AI, 43 car field, better graphics, more realism such as weather, debris, and mishaps in the pits. There will always be physics desires to separate the Nascar sims from other racing "games". BUT, I have to believe the ability to race via the internet with at least 20 car fields and do so for free... that will be a hit. If a huge Counterstrike map can exist with up to 32 individuals running around spraying bullets, moving in true 3D worlds, including under water, and up/down elevators then 20 to 30 cars going in circles should not be TOO much data to handle. TEN appears to be great for leagues but pickup races are always fiascos. If you use their free service then you get only Atlanta and Watkins. I'm not sure what it takes for Half-Life (also a Sierra product) to have its 32000 servers thru WON but I would have to imagine that NASCAR & GPL could work as well. Then again, maybe thats why I only "buy" the games and not write them :) Anyway, I'll buy it the day it hits the shelf. I'm sure it will fall short of many expectations in several areas, but with SOLID multiplayer support then I believe it will be very popular. We'll see. Andrew B.

>I hope you realize that people who play multiplayer constitute a >VERY small portion of the overall sales of any game. >You understand that, don't you? You understand where the future of *** and particular Sim-Racing is headed? You should also do the math and analysis of how many people and or market penatration you need to equal just 250,000 retail sales. I have it figured on or about 10,000 paying sim-racers. That means those 10,000 sim racers will equal in total revenue approx 250,000 retail sales. NOT a huge leap especially considering where we are today. The future is with racing against real people, NOT AI cars. The problem is the ease of entry and the quality of play. Right now it takes someone who is willing to tweek their systems and live in a good area for internet access to have good quality of play. Therefore, do YOU understand the importance of online racing? Bill / Amish on TEN

Actually, it is not a VERY small number of people who care about MP. The number of people looking for good MP games is growing larger and larger......hence why some ONLINE-ONLY games are VERY VERY popular. (Everquest, UO, soon to be Q3A) Time to realize that just cause you don't care about MP, you are slowly becoming part of the minority, and not the majority.

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> On Sun, 05 Sep 1999 17:05:26 -0700, > >The "be all - end all" for N3 will be its multiplayer support. > I doubt that, very seriously. > >Racing AI opponents is safe, cheap, and fun (for awhile). Once you've > >had a taste of online *** whether its DeathMatch Half-Life or NROS on > >TEN then its very hard to be drawn towards AI opponents. > I've had several 'tastes' of MP and I prefer solo play. > >If Sierra/Papyrus has put together a solid multiplayer product with N3 > >then it will be a success. > N3 -will- be a success because of Papyrus' reputation for good sims > and having the Nascar logo on the box, not whether it provides > great MP. > I hope you realize that people who play multiplayer constitute a > VERY small portion of the overall sales of any game. > You understand that, don't you? > -- > * rrevved at mindspring dot com

20 or 30 cars is a LOT of data. 20 racers is about 600 packets a second. Miss one second of data, and at 200MPH, your car has moved hundreds of feet.. Racing is probably the most demanding product on servers, routers, etc. Slow latency= lousy racing. Regards, Ken Hower OSCAR Admin

BrittoEd > >The "be all - end all" for N3 will be its multiplayer support. If multiplayer and single play are options why would It make a difference to you? Multiplayer capability IS the future of ***, any developer that hasn't figured that out will be left picking crumbs. Spearheading and on the cutting edge Is Motorsims who developed AMA Superbike using multiplayer as the base priority which emphasizes Mplay but will no doubt have single play/AI mode. If you prefer not to play against human beings that's your decision. You should try It, you might like It! Some prefer to play with others and some prefer to play with themselves. You understand that don't you? Coot

I understand the math. Would N2 be as popular without TEN? When Hawaii (remember those days) kicked off with N1, that was an INCREDIBLE rush. The multiplayer experience far exceeds what the AI will do for you. The sales will be there, it will be a financial success, but will I be playing it every day? Without solid MP... it will be played at times. The AI experience never gets your hands sweaty or your heart racing fast... NEVER... why? You "know" that there isn't another person at the other end. Its also pretty cool when you're part of a racing team, using RogerWilco during the race is a fun experience. Those AI drivers don't like to chat much. Every carset can be tweaked to know which driver is going to run strong or weak. With multiplayer... it involves more skill.. and luck for that matter... no CTL-R to start the race over. Oh yeah, the ability to meet new people and make friends is pretty cool too. Andrew "bot" B.

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> On Sun, 05 Sep 1999 17:05:26 -0700, > >The "be all - end all" for N3 will be its multiplayer support. > I doubt that, very seriously. > >Racing AI opponents is safe, cheap, and fun (for awhile). Once you've > >had a taste of online *** whether its DeathMatch Half-Life or NROS on > >TEN then its very hard to be drawn towards AI opponents. > I've had several 'tastes' of MP and I prefer solo play. > >If Sierra/Papyrus has put together a solid multiplayer product with N3 > >then it will be a success. > N3 -will- be a success because of Papyrus' reputation for good sims > and having the Nascar logo on the box, not whether it provides > great MP. > I hope you realize that people who play multiplayer constitute a > VERY small portion of the overall sales of any game. > You understand that, don't you? > -- > * rrevved at mindspring dot com

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>I don't know about that...racing games also include a prediction of what's >gonna happen, from what I understand. So missed packets wouldn't really >hurt it that bad.... >Also a bullet travels 3x faster than a racecar, and were talking about life >or death here. :-) >Jon

Jon, If a bullet is in the wrong position due to latency, or dropped packets, it's just considered a bad shot if it missed or a lucky shot if it hit. A car in the wrong position due to latency, or dropped packets is usually called a wreck.

On Sun, 05 Sep 1999 17:05:26 -0700, I doubt that, very seriously. I've had several 'tastes' of MP and I prefer solo play. N3 -will- be a success because of Papyrus' reputation for good sims and having the Nascar logo on the box, not whether it provides great MP. I hope you realize that people who play multiplayer constitute a VERY small portion of the overall sales of any game. You understand that, don't you? -- * rrevved at mindspring dot com

[snip] I'm with Bill and Andrew on this one. Even though I never got into GPL online (only because I never had the time to invest to get good offline), there is nothing like a human opponent. Even a rather arcadish racing game like Motocross Madness is an absolute blast when you throw in the unpredictability and competitive drive of other humans. There is also a certain satisfaction to beating them that is enormously more gratifying than defeating a computer opponent. Also important is that it adds to the staying power of a game/sim exponentially. I haven't played an offline game of MXMadness since a month after it came out, but I've played online about 3 times a week from the time I got it. Had it not had online play, it would basically have been a dust collector by now. As it is, I got *great* bang for my buck. I know Ten and NROS offered this stuff, but with N3 it should be more accessible. Fast internet connections are becoming more common, making the whole situation much more feasible. Cable is available in my area now, and I'm ecstatic. I can't wait to do some online paint swapping with fellow RAS'ers. :-) -- http://www.users.fast.net/~fusion1 (dirt bikes, rat bikes, rental car abuse...)

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> Ed Bain wrote > >I hope you realize that people who play multiplayer constitute a > >VERY small portion of the overall sales of any game. > >You understand that, don't you? > Therefore, do YOU understand the importance of online racing? > Bill / Amish on TEN

I think you are both right. A company could make a lot of money selling a small number of units if they all signed up to pay for play online service. But with the cost of labor, hardware, and bandwidth I think the numbers would need to be higher than 10,000. A company could also make a lot of money without investing a dime in online support as long as they sold enough copies - your 250,000 number would probably turn a nice profit. So either way the product could be successful, but since Sierra appears to have no plans for a pay per play service with NASCAR 3, it really doesn't matter one*** how good the multiplayer is. As long as those other 240,000 people that have no interest in multiplayer buy the product, NASCAR 3 will be successful. The real make or break is whether enough people agree with the reviews that we have seen so far, that this is more than a patch for NASCAR 1999. A lot of people felt ripped off by NASCAR 1999 and more recently NASCAR Revolution, so the market may not be as friendly as Sierra seems to think. Small things like the Brickyard being included, or Jeff Gordon not being included, will have more effect on N3 sales than our multiplayer concerns. Not everyone is like us in believing that it is "no big deal" to have to download a patch from the internet to get their favorite driver, car make, or track. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

Oval racing has never really appealed to me....but throw in multiplayer (I reckon the tweaking that's been happening with GPL is just testing for N3) and it would be a blast. AI will always be more predictable and thus less fun to race (IMO). Ben

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>[snip] >>play. Therefore, do YOU understand the importance of online racing? >I'm with Bill and Andrew on this one. >Even though I never got into GPL online (only because I never had the >time to invest to get good offline), there is nothing like a human >opponent. Even a rather arcadish racing game like Motocross Madness is >an absolute blast when you throw in the unpredictability and >competitive drive of other humans. >There is also a certain satisfaction to beating them that is >enormously more gratifying than defeating a computer opponent. >Also important is that it adds to the staying power of a game/sim >exponentially. I haven't played an offline game of MXMadness since a >month after it came out, but I've played online about 3 times a week >from the time I got it. >Had it not had online play, it would basically have been a dust >collector by now. As it is, I got *great* bang for my buck. >I know Ten and NROS offered this stuff, but with N3 it should be more >accessible. >Fast internet connections are becoming more common, making the whole >situation much more feasible. >Cable is available in my area now, and I'm ecstatic. I can't wait to >do some online paint swapping with fellow RAS'ers. :-) >-- > http://www.users.fast.net/~fusion1 > (dirt bikes, rat bikes, rental car abuse...)

I don't know about that...racing games also include a prediction of what's gonna happen, from what I understand. So missed packets wouldn't really hurt it that bad.... Also a bullet travels 3x faster than a racecar, and were talking about life or death here. :-) Jon

> Actually, it is not a VERY small number of people who care about MP. >The number of people looking for good MP games is growing larger and >larger......hence why some ONLINE-ONLY games are VERY VERY popular. >(Everquest, UO, soon to be Q3A) > Time to realize that just cause you don't care about MP, you are slowly >becoming part of the minority, and not the majority. Everything grows "larger and larger": the population, the online gamer population AND the *** population in general. However, that doesn't change the fact that online gamers are a very, very small minority. Face the facts, of the droves of people that buy computer games only a small group care enough about them to actually go online and play. BD

>>I don't know about that...racing games also include a prediction of what's >>gonna happen, from what I understand. So missed packets wouldn't really >>hurt it that bad.... >>Also a bullet travels 3x faster than a racecar, and were talking about life

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>>or death here. :-) >>Jon >Jon, >If a bullet is in the wrong position due to latency, or dropped packets, >it's just considered a bad shot if it missed or a lucky shot if it hit. >A car in the wrong position due to latency, or dropped packets is usually >called a wreck.

LOL! ROTFPP!

Probably not, Ed. You're *** a dead horse with that message, one that, whilst completely true, is not recognised by the tiny number of sim buyers who (a) frequent this group and (b) use on-line play.

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> On Sun, 05 Sep 1999 17:05:26 -0700, > >The "be all - end all" for N3 will be its multiplayer support. > I doubt that, very seriously. > >Racing AI opponents is safe, cheap, and fun (for awhile). Once you've > >had a taste of online *** whether its DeathMatch Half-Life or NROS on > >TEN then its very hard to be drawn towards AI opponents. > I've had several 'tastes' of MP and I prefer solo play. > >If Sierra/Papyrus has put together a solid multiplayer product with N3 > >then it will be a success. > N3 -will- be a success because of Papyrus' reputation for good sims > and having the Nascar logo on the box, not whether it provides > great MP. > I hope you realize that people who play multiplayer constitute a > VERY small portion of the overall sales of any game. > You understand that, don't you? > -- > * rrevved at mindspring dot com

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Bill, that spiel has been punted around here for the past 3 years (at least) yet the percentage of those who buy to play on-line still remains small in comparison to those who play off-line. The majority of retail customers who seriously game on-line is miniscule. One of the most popular on-line simulation genres for many years has been the combat flight sim (Warbirds and Air Warrior in particular) yet the numbers who regularly take part are insignificant in comparison to the total sales of such simulations. There is a misconception held by dedicated "on-line" people who converse regularly here that their interest represents those of the majority of simmers. I assure you that is not the case: the majority of retail customers don't know and don't care. They simply want to be entertained by what they have just bought; to get their money's worth from it before being attracted to something newer and brighter and possibly more entertaining. It's as simple as that, mate.

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> >I hope you realize that people who play multiplayer constitute a > >VERY small portion of the overall sales of any game. > >You understand that, don't you? > You understand where the future of *** and particular Sim-Racing is > headed? You should also do the math and analysis of how many people and

or > market penatration you need to equal just 250,000 retail sales. I have it > figured on or about 10,000 paying sim-racers. That means those 10,000 sim > racers will equal in total revenue approx 250,000 retail sales. NOT a huge > leap especially considering where we are today. The future is with racing > against real people, NOT AI cars. The problem is the ease of entry and the > quality of play. Right now it takes someone who is willing to tweek their > systems and live in a good area for internet access to have good quality of > play. Therefore, do YOU understand the importance of online racing? > Bill / Amish on TEN -----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ==---------- http://www.newsfeeds.com The Largest Usenet Servers in the World! ------== Over 73,000 Newsgroups - Including Dedicated Binaries Servers ==-----

You're wrong, Adam. Whilst growing, the on-line fraternity is still a tiny minority of the total who buy simulations (or any other multi-*** software). > Actually, it is not a VERY small number of people who care about MP. > The number of people looking for good MP games is growing larger and > larger......hence why some ONLINE-ONLY games are VERY VERY popular. > (Everquest, UO, soon to be Q3A) > Time to realize that just cause you don't care about MP, you are slowly

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> becoming part of the minority, and not the majority. > > On Sun, 05 Sep 1999 17:05:26 -0700, > > >The "be all - end all" for N3 will be its multiplayer support. > > I doubt that, very seriously. > > >Racing AI opponents is safe, cheap, and fun (for awhile). Once you've > > >had a taste of online *** whether its DeathMatch Half-Life or NROS

on

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> > >TEN then its very hard to be drawn towards AI opponents. > > I've had several 'tastes' of MP and I prefer solo play. > > >If Sierra/Papyrus has put together a solid multiplayer product with N3 > > >then it will be a success. > > N3 -will- be a success because of Papyrus' reputation for good sims > > and having the Nascar logo on the box, not whether it provides > > great MP. > > I hope you realize that people who play multiplayer constitute a > > VERY small portion of the overall sales of any game. > > You understand that, don't you? > > -- > > * rrevved at mindspring dot com

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On Sun, 5 Sep 1999 23:17:08 -0500, If N3, or any other game had great MP, it wouldn't matter to me -at all-. I would be glad for those people who like MP. In case it was lost on you, I was challenging the ***from TEN's allegations that N3 wouldn't be successful without great MP. Of course, he hasn't a clue. What he -should- have said, is that TEN won't be successful if games don't have great MP. Or, he could have said that 10% of the people who will lay down their cash for N3 might be disappointed if N3 doesn't have good MP. I have, many times, in lots of genres. I didn't like it. You, Cooter, are the posterboy / stereotype for 90% of the gamers that are online today. *plonk* -- * rrevved at mindspring dot com * unit.26 s.p.u.t.u.m. * http://www.cabal.net

On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 00:33:18 -0500, AMEN. -- * rrevved at mindspring dot com * unit.26 s.p.u.t.u.m. * http://www.cabal.net

How so Bruce, where do you get your facts from anyway? Mulitplayer *** is getting stronger everyday, mostly because of faster computers, better internet access and having internet support right out of the box. To be honest you sound like your one of these people who plays a game online, loses and quits playing. If you don't like to lose to people then yes Mulitplayer *** is not for you, because no matter how good you are there is always someone who is better. Games like Everquest, ultiama online, are online only games, and they do very well in sales along side your "singleplayer" games. If you don't like Muiltiplayer ***, then don't get AMA superbike, don't get Nascar3, instead of getting those games get ExtrameG by acclaim, its a racing game with zero multiplayer support and sense you like playing with yourself, should suit you very well. Or better yet get that racing game that was made by Jeff Gardon it has no muiltiplayer player support either, and will suit you as well also. > Bill, that spiel has been punted around here for the past 3 years (at least)

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> yet the percentage of those who buy to play on-line still remains small in > comparison to those who play off-line. > The majority of retail customers who seriously game on-line is miniscule. > One of the most popular on-line simulation genres for many years has been > the combat flight sim (Warbirds and Air Warrior in particular) yet the > numbers who regularly take part are insignificant in comparison to the

total > sales of such simulations. > There is a misconception held by dedicated "on-line" people who converse > regularly here that their interest represents those of the majority of > simmers. I assure you that is not the case: the majority of retail > customers don't know and don't care. They simply want to be entertained by > what they have just bought; to get their money's worth from it before being

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> attracted to something newer and brighter and possibly more entertaining. > It's as simple as that, mate. > > >I hope you realize that people who play multiplayer constitute a > > >VERY small portion of the overall sales of any game. > > >You understand that, don't you? > > You understand where the future of *** and particular Sim-Racing is > > headed? You should also do the math and analysis of how many people and > or > > market penatration you need to equal just 250,000 retail sales. I have

it > > figured on or about 10,000 paying sim-racers. That means those 10,000 sim > > racers will equal in total revenue approx 250,000 retail sales. NOT a > huge > > leap especially considering where we are today. The future is with racing > > against real people, NOT AI cars. The problem is the ease of entry and > the > > quality of play. Right now it takes someone who is willing to tweek their

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> > systems and live in a good area for internet access to have good quality > of > > play. Therefore, do YOU understand the importance of online racing? > > Bill / Amish on TEN > -----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News

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% Bill, that spiel has been punted around here for the past 3 years (at least) % yet the percentage of those who buy to play on-line still remains small in % comparison to those who play off-line. This is changing even as we speak and will continue to change at an ever increasing rate. Get ready for the future and stop living in the past (in computer/Internet language the past is now). As computer games are increasingly released with built in and easy to use online play (Motorsims and Papyrus) the move will begin. If I undertand things correctly N3 will be even easier to get started racing online out of the box than GPL ever was. Remember what they said just a short while ago about online shopping and e-commerce? Well, that jinni is out of its bottle. The online *** jinni has been released and won't be put back into its bottle. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

>You understand where the future of *** and particular Sim-Racing is >headed? There will probably be *some* more penetration into the multiplayer genre, with "community based" online games like the upcoming AMA Superbike. But as long as it's simple match-making (like GPL or N3) there will still be a large offline-racer market. The pickup races are usually lame, it's hard to find a good race. And many people don't have the time - or the ability to commit to *** at specific dates and times - to join a league. I think the AMA Superbike system is the way to go. Both leagues and pickup races, but with the pickup races including a rating system so you can find races at your own level of ability (without the trouble of joining a league). Joe McGinn ========================================== Staff Writer for the Sports *** Network [link lost in import: /***.com/] ==========================================

>How so Bruce, where do you get your facts from anyway? Mulitplayer *** >is getting stronger everyday... I constantly hear this, usually from online-*** fans. But the sales numbers don't really back it up. It's getting a little bigger, but no where near the point of approaching the strength of the offline-*** market. That's a myth. It's not connection speed that's limiting multiplayer ***, it's the [so far] lack of imagination put into the games themselves. First-person shooters are a perfect example - hardly a one of them has evolved beyond plain deathmatch (or minor variations of it based on team play). Racing games just have simple match-making Internet play. Both those limited genres are probably saturated already - that is, everyone interested in that style of gameplay is already playing it. The secret to expanding the multiplayer market is to make the multiplayer experience more interesting (i.e., like Everquest - not my cup of tea, but it's innovative in it's own way). Joe McGinn ========================================== Staff Writer for the Sports *** Network [link lost in import: /***.com/] ==========================================

hmmm, I don't have time to attend all the NASCAR Winston cup races. There fore there is no future in NASCAR racing! <G> Mike

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> >You understand where the future of *** and particular Sim-Racing is > >headed? > There will probably be *some* more penetration into the multiplayer > genre, with "community based" online games like the upcoming AMA > Superbike. But as long as it's simple match-making (like GPL or N3) > there will still be a large offline-racer market. The pickup races are > usually lame, it's hard to find a good race. And many people don't > have the time - or the ability to commit to *** at specific dates > and times - to join a league. > I think the AMA Superbike system is the way to go. Both leagues and > pickup races, but with the pickup races including a rating system so > you can find races at your own level of ability (without the trouble > of joining a league). > Joe McGinn > ========================================== > Staff Writer for the Sports *** Network > [link lost in import: /***.com/] > ==========================================

-- ========================================= Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing? ========================================= Racing online with the help of...... Race Communications Association http://members.xoom.com/RCA/toc.html Holodyne Engineering Mystic Music (have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here)

Exactly like pickup races on the NROS. It is still at the moment the best online racing service we can find, whatever people will say. We're 9000people there who have races and paid for it, without any publicity, no adds, nothing. Just think with a mass-market penetration that N3 will make, how it could grow up. -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

... > I constantly hear this, usually from online-*** fans. But the sales > numbers don't really back it up. It's getting a little bigger, but no > where near the point of approaching the strength of the offline-*** > market. Just like I told Bruce, where did you get your Numbers? How do you know that the offine market is so much bigger then the online market or are you just gussing here? Oh I don't know about that Joe, I'm sure someone with ADSL, or Cable will have a much better time playing internet games then someone with a 56k connection...just makes sense don't you think? True and just looking over AMA superbike's web site I would have to say its heading in that direction.

On Mon, 6 Sep 1999 18:32:00 -0400,

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>> I constantly hear this, usually from online-*** fans. But the sales >> numbers don't really back it up. It's getting a little bigger, but no >> where near the point of approaching the strength of the offline-*** >> market. >Just like I told Bruce, where did you get your Numbers? How do you know >that the offine market is so much bigger then the online market or are you >just gussing here?

The data is posted occasionally by PCDATA. Avault covers it every 4 or 5 months. It is usually a 15-20% online player to single-player ratio. You might be able to find it in their archives. Let's get back to the original poster's claims. The TEN jerk said: "The "be all - end all" for N3 will be its multiplayer support." "If Sierra/Papyrus has put together a solid multiplayer product with N3 then it will be a success. " I am not saying that great MP is a bad thing, or that the users of MP are not increasing, or that this ng doesn't have a higher pecentage of MP players. I am just saying that to think that N3 will -fail- without great MP, is ridiculous. -- * rrevved at mindspring dot com * unit.26 s.p.u.t.u.m. * http://www.cabal.net

I guess this shows everybody how you feel about everybody that has ever raced on TEN........ I guess your opinions and ideas are much more valuable and closer to fact than anybody elses. I guess from now on I should only read your posts and forget about everybody else's, since they are of no value to anybody. >On Mon, 6 Sep 1999 18:32:00 -0400, >Let's get back to the original poster's claims. >The TEN jerk said:

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>> I guess this shows everybody how you feel about everybody that has ever >> raced on TEN........ I guess your opinions and ideas are much more >valuable >> and closer to fact than anybody elses. I guess from now on I should only >> read your posts and forget about everybody else's, since they are of no >> value to anybody. >Hey Mike nice reply :)

Personally I don't think it was a nice reply and very unlike the Mike Mabrey we've come to know. The original message contained "The TEN jerk"... creating a "hostile" thread. This reply did nothing more than fan the flame. Some threads are best left without a response.

I never put down the NROS for VROC. NROS and VROC are two different things, NROS is a racing series where as VROC is a place to connect to to race GPL. I correct the miss interpretations people make about GPL or GSB as well as mention my experiences on both TEN and VROC. But not NROS for VROC. I have made strong opinions about TEN and GSB. But not the NROS for VROC... I will make strong opinions about oval racing and road racing. But not NROS for VROC. -- ========================================= Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing? ========================================= Racing online with the help of...... Race Communications Association http://members.xoom.com/RCA/toc.html Holodyne Engineering Mystic Music (have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here)

LOL, ya right. ;-) -- Sean Higgins "HigPup" "Hollywood" for R6 "Hollywood__NWO" for ZONE http://home.sprintmail.com/~higgy/hsts2/ HSTS, Powered by ATI Rage 128 http://www.atitech.ca ATI Technologies >>> I never put down the NROS for VROC. >I guess I missed the sarcasm I wanted to show in my message, sorry it was >sarcasm :) ><slaps himself for not putting a <sarcasm> tag in the message> >My fault Mike, you can flame me you know :)

Mike and Y: I think we have to cut MikeM some slack here. He is on a burning ship and fighting a firestorm of concerns from NASCAR drivers. I like MikeM for the old days. Find a job, MikeM and be Happy... DW

Frankie, Well, not first ever but first in a very long time. I used to be a regular 'lurker' in RAS for several years (how else would I know about you being the "Official Mentally Retarded Guy Of RAS" and the "Self-appointed President of RAS"?......hehe) Even then, I hardly ever posted (never felt recently returned to regularly reading RAS, although I did stop in from time to time. I stopped because my personal interest lay in NASCAR racing and this group was about everything but NASCAR for quite a while. With N3 coming out very soon it only seemed natural to return to make sure that I kept up with all the N3 information and concerns possible. As for NROS versus VROC, I don't feel the need for an us versus them menatilty. I love NASCAR racing and that's where my interest is. But I'm certainly not going to fault, degrade, or insult someone else just because they enjoy a different form of racing. That is ludicrous (that means rediculous for you GPLers....j/k <G>) Personally, I hope that everybody ends up happy with whatever racing simulation they are into. I hope that all the different disciplines can look at each other as comrades instead of opposition. We all love racing in one form or another and are actually after the same ultimate goal. To have simulated racing, be it online or offline, be the absolute best that it can be. The online crowd wants to see it grow into something on a grand scale, no matter which style of racing it is. Oh well, I've written too much already and started to ramble. I'll just slink back into the shadows again. Mike Mabrey >Hey Mike nice reply :) >First r.a.s post ever ? Your lurking here from time-to-time

Yes Mykey, you are probably correct about how that post came across. For that, I apologize. It just gets me a little upset when people get into the "us versus them" mindset. It's really unnecessary. Sorry. Mike Mabrey >Personally I don't think it was a nice reply and very unlike the Mike Mabrey

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>we've come to know. >The original message contained "The TEN jerk"... creating a "hostile" >thread. >This reply did nothing more than fan the flame. >Some threads are best left without a response.

oxymoron

Hey Mike nice reply :) First r.a.s post ever ? Your lurking here from time-to-time ? I've always informed r.a.s.ers about the NROS, and always try to reply when Mike Barlow puts down the NROS for VROC. I guess we will have to wait until an official answer by SIERRA to stop speculating about all the possibilities, but I will know a little sooner when I'll have the chance to try N3 multiplayer. I really don't want bad news, but I suppose it's what will happen :( Is it hard to work when you don't know about your immediate future for your job ? -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

>Avault covers it every 4 or 5 >months. It is usually a 15-20% online player to single-player ratio. And that is in ONLINE surveys, that are natually biased in *favor* of online ***. Joe McGinn ========================================== Staff Writer for the Sports *** Network [link lost in import: /***.com/] ==========================================

>> I think the AMA Superbike system is the way to go. Both leagues and >> pickup races, but with the pickup races including a rating system so >> you can find races at your own level of ability (without the trouble >> of joining a league). >Exactly like pickup races on the NROS. That's the for-pay Nascar online racing system? Unfortunately AMA will also be based on a paying subscription, which will limit the numbers or participants no matter how low the subscription rate. Joe McGinn ========================================== Staff Writer for the Sports *** Network [link lost in import: /***.com/] ==========================================

I guess I missed the sarcasm I wanted to show in my message, sorry it was sarcasm :) <slaps himself for not putting a <sarcasm> tag in the message> My fault Mike, you can flame me you know :) -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

> I understand the math. Would N2 be as popular without TEN? When Hawaii > (remember those days) kicked off with N1, that was an INCREDIBLE rush. The > multiplayer experience far exceeds what the AI will do for you. > The sales will be there, it will be a financial success, but will I be > playing it every day? Without solid MP... it will be played at times. The > AI experience never gets your hands sweaty or your heart racing fast... > NEVER... why? You "know" that there isn't another person at the other end. > Its also pretty cool when you're part of a racing team, using RogerWilco > during the race is a fun experience. Those AI drivers don't like to chat > much. > Every carset can be tweaked to know which driver is going to run strong or > weak. With multiplayer... it involves more skill.. and luck for that > matter... no CTL-R to start the race over. > Oh yeah, the ability to meet new people and make friends is pretty cool too. > Andrew "bot" B. My feelings exactly Andrew! I played N2 offline just every now and then before the NROS went live, but after racing online with real opponents, I never looked back. I had never had so muc fun in all my life (playing a video game). Online against real opponents makes all the difference in the world. And for those of you who don't think online *** is the future, all I can say is either you haven't ever played online, or you got your ass kicked miserably. Will it make or break Nascar3? You see they included it didn't they? Ralo Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

On Mon, 6 Sep 1999 17:00:06 -0700, Uhh.. why would you say that? I was commenting on a jerk at TEN, not the users of TEN, and certainly not 'everybody that has ever raced on TEN'. Did you major in hyperbole, or are you just an ***? I was giving my opinion on the jerk at TEN's belief that N3 will fail unless it has great MP. He is incorrect, and I said so. Oh, and thanks for snipping my entire post. That really helps the reader understand what we're talking about, and has the added effect of speaking volumes for your honesty. One more thing... *plonk*

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> I guess your opinions and ideas are much more valuable >and closer to fact than anybody elses. I guess from now on I should only >read your posts and forget about everybody else's, since they are of no >value to anybody. >>On Mon, 6 Sep 1999 18:32:00 -0400, >>Let's get back to the original poster's claims. >>The TEN jerk said:

-- * rrevved at mindspring dot com * unit.26 s.p.u.t.u.m. * http://www.cabal.net

Sometimes, I simply don't get a post. Maybe it's me, but Andrew, what are you talking about? Andre On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 22:50:57 -0700, Andrew Britton >oxymoron

>Sometimes, I simply don't get a post. Maybe it's me, but Andrew, what >are you talking about? It's a reference to the NASCAR -realistic expectations thread. Read it and learn how *not* to act. Another potentially compelling thread undermined by a game of computer dork Match Wits. <bg> Tim

(SNIP) You keep throwing around this 9,000 number, that's one of the main things that drove me away from TEN. What you really have is 1,000 honest guys, and 2,000 jerks who have four accounts each. I really liked the rankings, and worked hard to get to #800 with a 38 LPI despite the horrid start. Then I realized that the vast majority ahead of me had started over and or used seperate accounts for pick-up racing. Just before the NROS started, many people were losing races purposly to get in certain divisions. Ruined it for me. The only differences I see between TEN and VROC style are rankings and cost. I have very little trouble with warping on either, and I find chat to be moronic. Once I realized that the rankings were bogus, the cost seemed silly. Don McCorkle Libertarian Motorsports

Oh, I allready stopped readin that thread :) Andre

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>>Sometimes, I simply don't get a post. Maybe it's me, but Andrew, what >>are you talking about? >It's a reference to the NASCAR -realistic expectations thread. >Read it and learn how *not* to act. >Another potentially compelling thread undermined by a game of computer >dork Match Wits. <bg> >Tim

> Bill, that spiel has been punted around here for the past 3 years (at least) > yet the percentage of those who buy to play on-line still remains small in > comparison to those who play off-line. Bruce, what about LEADING retail games like Quake2, Tribes and Everquest to name just a few. The FUTURE is almost here, and the future is in online *** against real people. Online racing makes racing against feel like taking batting practice against a pitching machine vs. against a real life pitcher in a real game. They both use the same skills, but they give you entirely two different feelings and results. Online Racing is the future, not just something to say.... "Well given that only 1/5 of all purchases are currently going online, therefore we need not focus our resources in that direction". Bill / Amish on TEN

On Tue, 07 Sep 1999 10:31:08 -0400,

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>> Bill, that spiel has been punted around here for the past 3 years (at least) >> yet the percentage of those who buy to play on-line still remains small in >> comparison to those who play off-line. >Bruce, what about LEADING retail games like Quake2, Tribes and Everquest >to name just a few. The FUTURE is almost here, and the future is in >online *** against real people. Online racing makes racing against >feel like taking batting practice against a pitching machine vs. against >a real life pitcher in a real game. They both use the same skills, but >they give you entirely two different feelings and results. Online >Racing is the future, not just something to say.... "Well given that >only 1/5 of all purchases are currently going online, therefore we need >not focus our resources in that direction". >Bill / Amish on TEN

Bill, no one thinks that good MP shouldn't be in a product. I certainly don't feel that way. I just don't agree with the TEN hype-master that N3 will not be successful or will FAIL without it. That's what began this entire thread. Can you dig it? -- * rrevved at mindspring dot com * unit.26 s.p.u.t.u.m. * http://www.cabal.net

Sorry...I'm missing a rather large batch of posts for some reason or other. Probably ISP problems. So this reply is directed to Steve........... Steve, I have had involvement in the retail of software, both serious and fun, for the past seven years and, apart from statistical marketing surveys done by ourselves, we have similar data carried out world-wide by developers, publishers, distributors and retailers (which makes me grit my teeth sometimes when some publishers can't even be bothered to use the data or commission their own survey!) The number of people *** on-line is certainly increasing, no doubt about that. But so is the number of people buying computers, period. It would be pointless bandwidth for me to repeat those points that I've made, suffice to say this: Any software developer working on a game that has the capability to be played on-line and who does NOT include such a facility with his package needs his head read. BUT....and it's a big "but"............he MUST also recognise the fact that the majority of ***-software buyers play off-line and therefore cater to what is a major part of his market. And that is a fact that will continue for an indeterminate time. BK > >How so Bruce, where do you get your facts from anyway? Mulitplayer ***

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> >is getting stronger everyday... > I constantly hear this, usually from online-*** fans. But the sales > numbers don't really back it up. It's getting a little bigger, but no > where near the point of approaching the strength of the offline-*** > market. > >... mostly because of faster computers, better > >internet access and having internet support right out of the box. > That's a myth. It's not connection speed that's limiting multiplayer > ***, it's the [so far] lack of imagination put into the games > themselves. First-person shooters are a perfect example - hardly a one > of them has evolved beyond plain deathmatch (or minor variations of it > based on team play). Racing games just have simple match-making > Internet play. Both those limited genres are probably saturated > already - that is, everyone interested in that style of gameplay is > already playing it. > The secret to expanding the multiplayer market is to make the > multiplayer experience more interesting (i.e., like Everquest - not my > cup of tea, but it's innovative in it's own way). > Joe McGinn > ========================================== > Staff Writer for the Sports *** Network > [link lost in import: /***.com/] > ==========================================

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I assure you N3 will be a HUGE success. The game is excellent. -Larry

Bill, I guess maybe it isn't, or we wouldn't be kicked off of TEN/Pogo on the 14th of October :( -Larry

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> >I hope you realize that people who play multiplayer constitute a > >VERY small portion of the overall sales of any game. > >You understand that, don't you? > You understand where the future of *** and particular Sim-Racing is > headed? You should also do the math and analysis of how many people and

or > market penatration you need to equal just 250,000 retail sales. I have it > figured on or about 10,000 paying sim-racers. That means those 10,000 sim > racers will equal in total revenue approx 250,000 retail sales. NOT a huge > leap especially considering where we are today. The future is with racing > against real people, NOT AI cars. The problem is the ease of entry and the > quality of play. Right now it takes someone who is willing to tweek their > systems and live in a good area for internet access to have good quality of > play. Therefore, do YOU understand the importance of online racing? > Bill / Amish on TEN