Hey whiner, tell me where to get a better NASCAR sim. Take it back to
Hastings and then shut up.
--
Bob Curtin
Worcester Area Strategy & Tactics Exchange
http://www.tiac.net/users/ten10ths/
"If God had intended men to join the Army he would have given us green, baggy
skin"
Notable threadFlame warIs NASCAR Racing 3 just a rehash of NASCAR 2?
A rant that NASCAR Racing 3 looked silly next to Grand Prix Legends set off a long, insult-laden argument between GPL fans and NASCAR fans. Critics said N3 was an N2 engine with better graphics and unrealistic physics, while defenders said it was the best NASCAR sim available and offered better online racing. The thread wandered into store return policies and Sierra's cancellation of several titles.
Automated summary.
Go play your GPL. Leave the real racing to us. The reason that the game
does not seem that different from N1/N2 is that the old saying "If it ain't
broke, then don't fix it" applies. Get over it and stop your crying.
Perhaps the question to ask is why pay $50 for the same sim that has
been out from the same company for years? Just because it has a 3 at
the end instead of a 2 or a '99? That seems to be the best summation
of his rant. At that, I highly agree with virtually everything that
he said save for that I run Tribes far more than GPL. :)
I played it for far more than that and am still trying to find
something to like other than the twits on the net. A few decent folks
are the only ones that have kept me playing it this long. It's that
bad a game.
The sounds do suck indeed. They don't get much more fake or
disjointed. The only interesting merrit for the sounds seem to be the
typical metal parts vibrating together. That's it.. Then again, that's
a sound they can digitize from just about any american car so it's
hard to mess that up! <j/k, grin, etc.>
If the real cars handle this badly, especially on the road course,
it's no wonder they spend so much time in the walls. With the oval
courses you simply put your foot down and crank in varying degree's of
understeer for a few dozen laps until you win. Meanwhile you can still
eat, watch TV, etc. For the road courses they are rediculous. They
don't even try to turn the cars, work with the bumps or rises or
hills, etc. Nothing. This game is a joke in the handling aspects and
even as a "simulation" it doesn't seem to be as well modeled as the
average Arcade game. That is VERY lame.
It's the same game. You expected it to be different?? The steering
wheel isn't even needed. a pair of switches marked "Left turn" and
"Straight". :)
Indeed! You might think that with todays tech and their interest in
making things realistic they could at least try to animate the pit
crew. For crying out loud the Atari 2600 had animated pit crews and
THEY can't? Am I really missing something here?
Let's see, the bumper comes off (sometimes) the front gets either
destroyed or just loses a tire (sometimes) and if you get plowed in
the rear by someone the rear gets a little crumpled. So much for the
damage list. Even worse are the cheesy sound effects when they try to
fix it. It sounds like the tool-band from home Improvement but without
the harmony. The spins and such aren't even realistic and are far to
easy to regain control over.
Something tells me this isnt' a surprise. I got the original Nascar
as a toss in when I bought some other item and it represented at least
a few evenings gameplay. The sad part? It seemed as though it used a
far more realistic physics model than this game, especially on the
road courses. I'm tempted to dust it off and see if it will run on
the PII450 since I used to run it on the Pentium 66. It seems that
for the extra money they are charging they are actually going
backwards in tech and quality. Is Sierra getting into Government
Contracts now? That seems to be the only explination! Charge more, do
less, and do a half-ass job at that.
____________________
Hydrogen and Stupidity.. The two most universal elements
Geeez , go race yourself online for 40 minutes while waiting for someone to
either wait up for you, or you wait up for someone , so you can actually see
another car on the track. I love GPL for the pure fun of driving the cars.
But if I want to actually race, I do it off-line with GPL. If I want great,
competitive on-line racing, N3 is for me. That is the big difference between
these two sims. N3 gives you the on-line racing experience, GPL gives you the
realism.
I love them both
Rick Sweeney
Quoted text (62 lines)
> Good grief what a let down. > Been playing Nascar 3 on my system for about 3 hours now. > I don't think I've been this let down in quite some time. I know that > they declared that N3 wouldn't use the GPL engine quite a while back, but > this is rediculous. > I challenge anyone to find the difference between this game and Nascar 2/1 > aside from a couple of tweakable chassis settings that have a disputable > affect if any whatsoever on the car performance/handling whatsoever. > This game is _another_ rewrite of Nascar 1. Nothing more except for > eyecandy. Even the soundsin Nascar 1 were better than this. Exhaust > sounds are _completely_ the same from car to car, and are no better than > anything you'd find in one of the cheesy Need for Speed series games. > Realistic handling settings? My ass. From the get go I disabled all > "helpers" for steering and braking, and find it hard to***up doing > anything. The car drives like a damned station wagon. Even taking off in > the pits gives you limited spinning sensation when you "smoke" the > tires.... which by the way seems to be the only way to exit a pit without > tagging another car's ass. > And no steering wheel in the***pit? WTF is this? I can understand not > wanting to obstruct the guages, but then why make the hud completely > unconfigurable ... not to mention even leaving the SAME status display > boxes in the SAME area which are called up by the SAME function keys to > reveal the SAME limited information? > The pit crew is the same stupid pose of a group of pit people on your team > that posseses absolutely no movement charateristics whatsoever regardless > of what view you're in. THE SAME POSES even. Just updated graphics/a > sharper still image of them. > I just ran my car at 160 mph into a wall now, and on REALISTIC damage > settings, ALL graphical options maxed (p3-450, 2 12mb voodoo 2's/Creative > TNT2Ultra, 256mb ram), there was absolutely NO debris coming from the car. > The only signs of a wreck were the missing tire on my front left side and > the obvious, though not even closely modelled inability to turn left. > Pathetic. > I guess my main question that I pose to the group is if Randy Cassidy and > crew are working on Nascar Legends, and what if any resemblance to GPL it > will have in the engine. This piece of ***is going back to hastings > _tonight_. Please do NOT let them try to get the settings dumbed down > like this garbage. > Way to try to cash in on your nascar license Sierra. You've created a $50 > addon pack to the 6 other titles you currently market using the Nascar 1 > game engine. > Back to GPL... the one game I can honestly say I've played more hours > (bought 2 days after it hit the rack) than anything I've bought for any > system ever. > As a matter of fact, Sierra, release an addon for GPL. At least it would > be worth $50. This belongs in a bargain bin. Yesterday. > -- > -j.c.h. > spill /|t frenzy dawt cawmYup there both good in there own sense its just a shame N3 wasn't pushed to
the limits like GPL was. As for seeing others on the track with GPL I see
mostly people lapping me LOL :)
Norm
> Geeez , go race yourself online for 40 minutes while waiting for someone to
> either wait up for you, or you wait up for someone , so you can actually see
> another car on the track. I love GPL for the pure fun of driving the cars.
> But if I want to actually race, I do it off-line with GPL. If I want great,
> competitive on-line racing, N3 is for me. That is the big difference between
> these two sims. N3 gives you the on-line racing experience, GPL gives you the
but
> > this is rediculous.
> > I challenge anyone to find the difference between this game and Nascar 2/1
in
> > the pits gives you limited spinning sensation when you "smoke" the
> > tires.... which by the way seems to be the only way to exit a pit without
> > tagging another car's ass.
> > And no steering wheel in the***pit? WTF is this? I can understand not
> > wanting to obstruct the guages, but then why make the hud completely
> > unconfigurable ... not to mention even leaving the SAME status display
> > boxes in the SAME area which are called up by the SAME function keys to
> > reveal the SAME limited information?
> > The pit crew is the same stupid pose of a group of pit people on your team
> > that posseses absolutely no movement charateristics whatsoever regardless
> > of what view you're in. THE SAME POSES even. Just updated graphics/a
> > sharper still image of them.
> > I just ran my car at 160 mph into a wall now, and on REALISTIC damage
> > settings, ALL graphical options maxed (p3-450, 2 12mb voodoo 2's/Creative
> > TNT2Ultra, 256mb ram), there was absolutely NO debris coming from the car.
> > The only signs of a wreck were the missing tire on my front left side and
> > the obvious, though not even closely modelled inability to turn left.
> > Pathetic.
> > I guess my main question that I pose to the group is if Randy Cassidy and
> > crew are working on Nascar Legends, and what if any resemblance to GPL it
> > will have in the engine. This piece of ***is going back to hastings
> > _tonight_. Please do NOT let them try to get the settings dumbed down
> > like this garbage.
> > Way to try to cash in on your nascar license Sierra. You've created a $50
would
> > be worth $50. This belongs in a bargain bin. Yesterday.
> > --
> > -j.c.h.
> > spill /|t frenzy dawt cawm
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Quoted text (15 lines)
> realism. > I love them both > Rick Sweeney > > Good grief what a let down. > > Been playing Nascar 3 on my system for about 3 hours now. > > I don't think I've been this let down in quite some time. I know that > > they declared that N3 wouldn't use the GPL engine quite a while back,Quoted text (11 lines)
> > aside from a couple of tweakable chassis settings that have a disputable > > affect if any whatsoever on the car performance/handling whatsoever. > > This game is _another_ rewrite of Nascar 1. Nothing more except for > > eyecandy. Even the soundsin Nascar 1 were better than this. Exhaust > > sounds are _completely_ the same from car to car, and are no better than > > anything you'd find in one of the cheesy Need for Speed series games. > > Realistic handling settings? My ass. From the get go I disabled all > > "helpers" for steering and braking, and find it hard to***up doing > > anything. The car drives like a damned station wagon. Even taking offQuoted text (8 lines)
> > addon pack to the 6 other titles you currently market using the Nascar 1 > > game engine. > > Back to GPL... the one game I can honestly say I've played more hours > > (bought 2 days after it hit the rack) than anything I've bought for any > > system ever. > > As a matter of fact, Sierra, release an addon for GPL. At least itI bet your get a few job offers from Sierra PR people with that slogan :) By
the way are you still playing N3 on the same system you played N1/N2 on....I
mean if it ain't broke don't fix it right. I want new games myself not
patched older games, Talkin like that is gonna give us Space Invaders 2000
3D accelrated using the original game engine)
Norm
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On Tue, 21 Sep 1999 21:46:42 -0500, "Gary A. Burns"
>Go play your GPL. Leave the real racing to us. The reason that the game
>does not seem that different from N1/N2 is that the old saying "If it ain't
>broke, then don't fix it" applies. Get over it and stop your crying.
Leave the 'Real" racing to you? I love how Nascar twits scream that F1
is just a parade and that driving in circles all day in an endless
parade of fake cars is real racing. If it's not broken and doesn't
need to be fixed why did they bother putting a 3 at the end? You tell
us! The only one's crying here are the Designers and producers who are
laughing so hard that everyone rushed out to buy into this hype and to
fork over their hard earned dollars that tears are coming to their
eyes. This game is nothing like what it could or should be and is
certainly NOT worth $50 US. $20? Maybe.
____________________
Hydrogen and Stupidity.. The two most universal elements
Actually SI 2000 3D might be more fun. Scratch that, it WOULD be more
fun. If this is real racing how is it that I can go online the first
day I have the game having never played it as single player only game,
run the Ace set-up untweaked and beat everyone else in 3 games
(average of 9 drivers finishing each race) while eating dinner AND
watching TV between corners? THIS is what you call racing? How can
they do this in reality and not fall asleep? Real racing my ass.
____________________
Hydrogen and Stupidity.. The two most universal elements
copied and pasted from www.voodooextreme.com:
"One the heels of another reorganization, Sierra On-Line has elected to
cancel several titles it claims did not meet its success criteria. Cancelled
titles include Desert Fighters and Pro Pilot Paradise at the company's
Dynamix studio, Babylon 5, a project of Sierra Studios, and Orcs: Revenge of
the Ancient. The product cancellations will result in the loss of 105 jobs."
"The company today also announced a reorganization into three business
units: Core Games, Casual Entertainment and Home Productivity. This new
structure is effective immediately. Core Games features several renowned
development teams including Impressions Games, Papyrus, Sierra's Northwest
studio and the Tribes team. In addition to Valve, other third party
relationships include Relic and Massive Entertainment. Core Games will focus
on strategy, action, RPG and adventure games. "
Without the NASCAR line, you might just as well give up on seeing anything
from papy again soon. And Nascar3, while VERY different from GPL, is a damn
fine sim on it's own - i even have to keep myself from saying it's perfect
because it isn't. But If you know a better Nascar sim, go play Nascar
Revolution. And enjoy the "outstanding" Atmosphere, Tactics, Sound, AI
you'll get there. As recently labelled "core gamers" we should be proud that
papy is still alive and showing it with a magnificent title like N3.
Alex
Disagreed. GPL gives them both. F1 for challenge and F3 for racing
experience ;)
Now, now, SpiLL!
You should realise that if you criticise N3 then, in some quarters, you are
also criticising ones manhood.
BK
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Quoted text (16 lines)
> > Hey whiner, tell me where to get a better NASCAR sim. Take it back to > > Hastings and then shut up. > Gee. > There's an argument. > Settling is bullshit. If it weren't for the screwy licensing system and > the shear threat of having lawyers unleashed upon someone willing to ante > up a better NASCAR sim, I'm sure this thing would have been outclassed or > discontinued altogether before it's now lame pathetic third incarnation. > Welcome to Usenet. Get used to reading opinions that differ from your > own, genius. If you can't handle that, find another hobby. > -j.c.h.In the USA, as a general rule can you simply return software because you
don't like it?
If so, you have some very liberal consumer laws.
ain't
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Quoted text (11 lines)
> > Go play your GPL. Leave the real racing to us. > Heh. "Real racing"? I've raced not only oval track in San Antonio (HWY16 > Raceway), but also 4-wheelers, as well as taken a turn at drag racing. > As far as sims go, anyone who pits GPL against Nascar 3 (read as "arcade > wanna be") and compares them on a basis of 'reality' that actually _owns_ > both games would probably laugh until they bled at your above comment. > > The reason that the game > > does not seem that different from N1/N2 is that the old saying "If itQuoted text (24 lines)
> > broke, then don't fix it" applies. > This is your reasoning? > Bullshit. > The reason the game does not seem different is because it _isn't_ > different. I just examined the executable myself, comparing certain > sections with the Nascar 2 cd I still have, and to my suprise </sarcasm> > there are even certain segments in the binary that are mirror images of > Nascar 2. > It's an addon pack. Another lame attempt to make some serious cash by > dangling a Nascar emblem in front of potential software purchasers faces. > In other words, garbage. > > Get over it and stop your crying. > Count on it. It's going back tomorrow. > -- > -j.c.h.Alexander, it's not so much a point of it being "the best Nascar
sim"....nobody has disputed that.
The detractors are saying what a lot of others were saying prior to its
release: that compared to what preceeded it, N3 is not a _major_
improvement over N2.
It seems to me that this argument is based on the fact that these people
have all experienced the heights of realism offered by GPL and N3, whilst
containing "improvements" over N2, is still on a far lower plateau.
Just the opinion of a disinterested party.
BK
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>Now, now, SpiLL!
>You should realise that if you criticise N3 then, in some quarters, you are
>also criticising ones manhood.
>BK
Tht's rich considering what happens to people who critise GPL :P
Z.
Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.
Quoted text (7 lines)
> >Now, now, SpiLL! > >You should realise that if you criticise N3 then, in some quarters, you are > >also criticising ones manhood. > >BK > Tht's rich considering what happens to people who critise GPL :PThen my question is: why did these geniuses go out and buy it anyway and THEN ***
about it?
--
Bob Curtin
Worcester Area Strategy & Tactics Exchange
http://www.tiac.net/users/ten10ths/
"If God had intended men to join the Army he would have given us green, baggy skin"
Quoted text (11 lines)
> The detractors are saying what a lot of others were saying prior to its > release: that compared to what preceeded it, N3 is not a _major_ > improvement over N2. > It seems to me that this argument is based on the fact that these people > have all experienced the heights of realism offered by GPL and N3, whilst > containing "improvements" over N2, is still on a far lower plateau. > Just the opinion of a disinterested party. > BKHmmm.
I beat Christer Anderson to the line this weekend in a 29 lap race at
Zandvoort. The margin........1/100 of a second!
Mark
cars.
> >But if I want to actually race, I do it off-line with GPL. If I want great,
> >competitive on-line racing, N3 is for me. That is the big difference
> between
> >these two sims. N3 gives you the on-line racing experience, GPL gives you
> the
> >realism.
> >I love them both
> >Rick Sweeney
Quoted text (10 lines)
> Disagreed. GPL gives them both. F1 for challenge and F3 for racing > experience ;) > >Geeez , go race yourself online for 40 minutes while waiting for someone > to > >either wait up for you, or you wait up for someone , so you can actually > see > >another car on the track. I love GPL for the pure fun of driving theQuoted text (16 lines)
> > Hey whiner, tell me where to get a better NASCAR sim. Take it back to > > Hastings and then shut up. > Gee. > There's an argument. > Settling is bullshit. If it weren't for the screwy licensing system and > the shear threat of having lawyers unleashed upon someone willing to ante > up a better NASCAR sim, I'm sure this thing would have been outclassed or > discontinued altogether before it's now lame pathetic third incarnation. > Welcome to Usenet. Get used to reading opinions that differ from your > own, genius. If you can't handle that, find another hobby. > -j.c.h.Very tolerant of other people's opinions there Bob. He said HE is let
down, not you - how can you know his feelings better than him?
Cheers!
John
On Tue, 21 Sep 1999 21:46:42 -0500, "Gary A. Burns"
>Go play your GPL. Leave the real racing to us.
ER, LOL....
That old cliche could apply, but then "If it ain't broke and hasn't
been fixed, why pay for it all over again? N3 is pretty cool, and
somewhat improved compared to N2, but there's no doubt it could have
been so much better if offering the same involvement and driving
dynamics as GPL.
Surely you can't disagree with that?
Cheers!
John
Quoted text (15 lines)
> On Wed, 22 Sep 1999 20:31:15 +1000, > >In the USA, as a general rule can you simply return software because you > >don't like it? > >If so, you have some very liberal consumer laws. > No, its up to the merchant. Electronics Boutique, for example, > will accept opened returns, no questions asked, for 10 days. > I believe they have the same policy in the U.K, and Australia. > * rrevved at mindspring dot com > * unit.26 s.p.u.t.u.m. > * http://www.cabal.net> It's one of those laws that the
>corporations/stores/dealers.... don't want you to know about. This also
>includes buying a Ferrari at 200,000.00. You can crash that ferrari and
>return it for a full refund with in 10(?) days
this suprises me. In the UK at least, the return has to be in "saleable"
condition, or broken as a result of normal operation use.
Z.
Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.
What Mark forgot to say is that Christer also drove through the field like a
madman possessed to make up for a bumble at the start of the field. :)
Perhaps its just me, but in the about 4 to 5 hours I've put into N3 so far
including loading up my copy of N2 with all patches and playing it with a
joystick [LWFF doesn't work real well with N2. :)], I really don't "feel"
much of a major difference at all.
I keep expecting to feel, and see when looking for arcade views to check out
the model, the car squatting when you apply serious power in the pits and
smoke the wheels, can't see it at all so not sure if a) its modeled or b)
its modeled but not translated through the model well whcih doesn't do much
of a good thing. Also, unless I'm blind or something it does not seem to
dive forward either under severe braking which does not include locking up
the wheels. I used to do 122s or so at WG all the time on NROS awhile back
and I honestly dont remember ever seeing or feeling my tires lock up. I
tried all sorts of stuff [hey, I am really only interested in mostly road
courses...sigh, wish I could convert ICR2 road courses to GPL] to get the
wheels to lock up and can't.
However, I've only spent a limited time on it, so perhaps I'm just not
looking hard enough or paying enough attention.
Thats nearly as stupid of comment as many made my the guy who can't even be
bothered to include his email address. However, at least he had some valid
points intermixed with a lot of rampant stupidity.
And "real" racing can be taken many different ways. GPL being most arguably
the most realistic simulator for a PC as far as auto racing dynamics goes
can be argued to be "real racing". Granted, its not for everyone because of
a) the theme of 67 GP cars, b) the problems associated with driving nearly
uncontrollable 67 GP cars, c) whatever else you can come up with. Arguments
that are just as valid can be made for N3/NROS type racing where perhaps the
driving model dynamics are not quite as spot on as in GPL, but the racing is
a bit closer [for whatever reason be it simpler physics, easier to drive,
type of racing, etc] for the majority is more attune to "real racing".
Bottom line it comes down to personal preference.
Personally its my opinion that you should go "play" your N3, and leave the
real racing (aka GPL) to the rest of us. :? But then again, thats just me.
:)
> Go play your GPL. Leave the real racing to us. The reason that the game
> does not seem that different from N1/N2 is that the old saying "If it ain't
but
> > this is rediculous.
> > I challenge anyone to find the difference between this game and Nascar 2/1
in
> > the pits gives you limited spinning sensation when you "smoke" the
> > tires.... which by the way seems to be the only way to exit a pit without
> > tagging another car's ass.
> > And no steering wheel in the***pit? WTF is this? I can understand not
> > wanting to obstruct the guages, but then why make the hud completely
> > unconfigurable ... not to mention even leaving the SAME status display
> > boxes in the SAME area which are called up by the SAME function keys to
> > reveal the SAME limited information?
> > The pit crew is the same stupid pose of a group of pit people on your team
> > that posseses absolutely no movement charateristics whatsoever regardless
> > of what view you're in. THE SAME POSES even. Just updated graphics/a
> > sharper still image of them.
> > I just ran my car at 160 mph into a wall now, and on REALISTIC damage
> > settings, ALL graphical options maxed (p3-450, 2 12mb voodoo 2's/Creative
> > TNT2Ultra, 256mb ram), there was absolutely NO debris coming from the car.
> > The only signs of a wreck were the missing tire on my front left side and
> > the obvious, though not even closely modelled inability to turn left.
> > Pathetic.
> > I guess my main question that I pose to the group is if Randy Cassidy and
> > crew are working on Nascar Legends, and what if any resemblance to GPL it
> > will have in the engine. This piece of ***is going back to hastings
> > _tonight_. Please do NOT let them try to get the settings dumbed down
> > like this garbage.
> > Way to try to cash in on your nascar license Sierra. You've created a $50
would
> > be worth $50. This belongs in a bargain bin. Yesterday.
> > --
> > -j.c.h.
> > spill /|t frenzy dawt cawm
Quoted text (11 lines)
> broke, then don't fix it" applies. Get over it and stop your crying. > > Good grief what a let down. > > Been playing Nascar 3 on my system for about 3 hours now. > > I don't think I've been this let down in quite some time. I know that > > they declared that N3 wouldn't use the GPL engine quite a while back,Quoted text (11 lines)
> > aside from a couple of tweakable chassis settings that have a disputable > > affect if any whatsoever on the car performance/handling whatsoever. > > This game is _another_ rewrite of Nascar 1. Nothing more except for > > eyecandy. Even the soundsin Nascar 1 were better than this. Exhaust > > sounds are _completely_ the same from car to car, and are no better than > > anything you'd find in one of the cheesy Need for Speed series games. > > Realistic handling settings? My ass. From the get go I disabled all > > "helpers" for steering and braking, and find it hard to***up doing > > anything. The car drives like a damned station wagon. Even taking offQuoted text (8 lines)
> > addon pack to the 6 other titles you currently market using the Nascar 1 > > game engine. > > Back to GPL... the one game I can honestly say I've played more hours > > (bought 2 days after it hit the rack) than anything I've bought for any > > system ever. > > As a matter of fact, Sierra, release an addon for GPL. At least itOn Wed, 22 Sep 1999 08:55:39 -0400, Michael Barlow
> Not having N3 or NASCAR Rev.. I just wonder what the differences are?
>I'd assume the graphics are better in N3, so lets skip the graphics
>part. What about the physics?
Straight up the physics in N3 are a joke. You can go flat out, nail
the brakes, drive through corners flat out, hit walls, spin, etc.
Nothing of them is even remotely real nor are most of the handling
adjustments. This is about the least realistic sim I have ever dealt
with this side of Pole Position.. Remember that one? It came out on
the Atari 2600 after debuting in an arcade?
____________________
Hydrogen and Stupidity.. The two most universal elements
On Wed, 22 Sep 1999 09:30:36 -0500, "Chris Schletter"
Try this, going into a sharp corner flat out and totally lifting off
the throttle results in: ta da! The car steers tighter into the corner
and holds the line (or still plows right off the track). Reality? The
car would have gone into serious oversteer! You can even mash the
brake in the middle of the corner and it simply tucks down lower into
the corner but doesn't even attempt to spin. If it happens to lockt
he tires (no hint of when it will actually do this, it's either on or
off) it slides into the wall, makes a few cheesy sounds, bounces for
about 50' then continues at pretty much the same speed as initial
impact. You have a 40% chance of the voice coming on to tell you that
you have serious rear end damage which is the bumper being knocked
half off..which isn't to bad until you realise you hit the wall with
the right but the picture depicts the LEFT side of the bumper falling
off! Oh yeah.. this is another 'feature'.
All the while the phrase 'feel' never comes into the game. There is
no sensation of speed, not even when the lines at 'dega start passing
by really fast. It simply feels like you are standing still and the
world is coming to meet you. Body roll isn't even really noticed but
in a car that tightly structured I would not expect it to be. You
don't see much of it in the actual cars on the track so it may well be
modelled accurately.
____________________
Hydrogen and Stupidity.. The two most universal elements
Quoted text (8 lines)
>> Not having N3 or NASCAR Rev.. I just wonder what the differences are? >> I'd assume the graphics are better in N3, so lets skip the graphics >> part. What about the physics? >Perhaps its just me, but in the about 4 to 5 hours I've put into N3 so far >including loading up my copy of N2 with all patches and playing it with a >joystick [LWFF doesn't work real well with N2. :)], I really don't "feel" >much of a major difference at all.On Wed, 22 Sep 1999 09:58:38 -0400, Michael Barlow
> We found that out while
>looking for stupid and still active laws. Did you know it's illegal to
>hunt wild Zebra in NYS? ;-)
There is also a nice law on the books in some county in the US (keep
thinking it's Louisianna or Texas but not sure) that if your animals
are fornicating in public view you can be fined up to $1,000 and
sentenced to 3 years in jail. This law dates back to the late 1890's
so $1,000 back then was a LOT of money.
There is also still a law on the books dating back to the original
cars in one area that dictates "upon approaching an intersection an a
horseless carrige the driver must stop the vehicle, turn the vehicle
off, ring a bell (describes bell), wait for a response, fire three
shots from a long-rifle into the air, wait for a response, ring the
bell again, and if no response is met may proceed normally. These
actions must be repeated at all intersections." (This law was enacted
with the intent to warn people on horses that might easily be spooked
that an auto was on the road and possibly heading toward them and was
in varying degree's pretty common.) Again, I'm not positive which 4
counties (yes, at least 4, possibly more) it is still on the books in
though obviously it's not enforced.. can you imagine the sheer road
rage at a 4-way stoplight in L.A.??? :)
____________________
Hydrogen and Stupidity.. The two most universal elements
On Wed, 22 Sep 1999 20:29:10 +1000, "Bruce Kennewell"
>Now, now, SpiLL!
>You should realise that if you criticise N3 then, in some quarters, you are
>also criticising ones manhood.
That doesn't speak well for those people then if Nascar is the equal
of their ... well, you get the idea. No wonder they sit in front of
TV's watching roundy-round races all day and football the rest of the
time. They haven't much of a manhood to get out and go on a date! ;)
____________________
Hydrogen and Stupidity.. The two most universal elements
Quoted text (18 lines)
> Thats nearly as stupid of comment as many made my the guy who can't even be > bothered to include his email address. However, at least he had some valid > points intermixed with a lot of rampant stupidity. > And "real" racing can be taken many different ways. GPL being most arguably > the most realistic simulator for a PC as far as auto racing dynamics goes > can be argued to be "real racing". Granted, its not for everyone because of > a) the theme of 67 GP cars, b) the problems associated with driving nearly > uncontrollable 67 GP cars, c) whatever else you can come up with. Arguments > that are just as valid can be made for N3/NROS type racing where perhaps the > driving model dynamics are not quite as spot on as in GPL, but the racing is > a bit closer [for whatever reason be it simpler physics, easier to drive, > type of racing, etc] for the majority is more attune to "real racing". > Bottom line it comes down to personal preference. > Personally its my opinion that you should go "play" your N3, and leave the > real racing (aka GPL) to the rest of us. :? But then again, thats just me. > :)Quoted text (21 lines)
> > So you don't read this newsgroup? What lead you to believe that > > the physics would compare, in any way, to GPL? > I do on occasion.... not a habitual reader. Depends on the software I'm > concentrating on at the time. When GPL came out, I was here, though perhaps less > vocal. I think I remember spewing a drunken post about how incredibly hard GPL was > ... though I was only 3 days into the game, and driving Zandy with a BAL of .08% > making it a little difficult to find the track they hid in all that grass. > I never expected this to compare to GPL in the physics sense. I suppose I was just > expecting _something_ new for my money.... I mean the damn 'Paintkit' tutorial in > the readme.txt file is even ripped off from a public domain guide that came > out with Nascar 1 or 2 (if I remember right). > Not only that, but I consider the people here to be the lucky few who actually use > Usenet to their best advantage when they can. What about the other people who > don't use this for any kind of reference? Seems that quite a few of the "*** > news" (used VERY loosely) sites are raving about how wonderful NASCAR 3 i and what > a breakthrough in *** technology the program is an example of. Makes me wonder > the age of the author of said articles, and whether or not they've ever even > installed one of the other "versions" in this series.I'd be very interested in just where this law can be found. If it is true for the
whole US as implied it has to be a Federal Statute. I'd love to know just what
U.S. Code you found that covers this so I can use it in the future. Please
advise. Paul
Quoted text (10 lines)
> In the US, it is the law that anything a consumer buys can be returned > for a full refund as long as it's returned with in (I think it is...) 10 > days. no matter what the condition the product is in when being > returned. It's one of those laws that the > corporations/stores/dealers.... don't want you to know about. This also > includes buying a Ferrari at 200,000.00. You can crash that ferrari and > return it for a full refund with in 10(?) days. We found that out while > looking for stupid and still active laws. Did you know it's illegal to > hunt wild Zebra in NYS? ;-) > --Well, yes Texas is still a "country" but Louisiana is a "State". ;-) Paul
> There is also a nice law on the books in some county in the US (keep
> thinking it's Louisianna or Texas but not sure) that if your animals
This great return policy has given Electronics Boutique a large number
of loyal followers myself included, I personally buy *all* my game software
there, even though I can usually purchase it much cheaper at other stores.
It is worth it to me to pay a bit more money for something, knowing I can
return it if it stinks, something which for a while there was happening
with a lot of games rushed to market, (including more than a few sports titles
by Sierra which I returned, so buggy as to be unplayable).
Luckily I've only had to return a couple of racing sim titles in the past
(NFS2, and Test Drive Offroad that I can remember)
Overall, I think it's great that we are able to return software that is not up
to par, especially with the number of unfinished titles that seem to be
rushed to market each X-mas in unfinished condition, this however doesn't
mean consumers should abuse it and ignore the responsibility of looking
at previews and reviews of titles before they buy them so that they know
in advance what to expect.
As far as N3 goes....
I haven't bought N3 yet, I already knew that the N3 physics model isn't my
cup of tea (and I've never been too crazy about 0val racing :-). I listened
to the previews and info here on r.a.s. and had a chance to try it at a
friend's house, to me N3 felt the same as N2 with prettier eyecandy and
sounds, i.e. no brake lockup or oversteer etc, and truthfully I don't want
to spend $49.95 on a sim which already know I won't be too crazy about.
I *am* going to purchase N3 though eventually, mostly to support Papyrus and
also because I'm hoping there will be some great Touring Car patches coming
from The Pits, but I'm waiting until N3 shows up at Costco or something where
it will be $29.99 instead of $49.99 and since I already know what to expect
I don't have to worry about being able to return it or not.
I purchased N2 back when it came out knowing the same things and for similar
reasons. Anyone here in r.a.s. who didn't know what to expect in N3 must've
not payed attention to all the previews and info posted here about it, it's
definitely no GPL but we all knew this in advance.
Seeyas on the track.
--John (Joao) Silva
Quoted text (15 lines)
>On Wed, 22 Sep 1999 20:31:15 +1000, >>In the USA, as a general rule can you simply return software because you >>don't like it? >>If so, you have some very liberal consumer laws. >No, its up to the merchant. Electronics Boutique, for example, >will accept opened returns, no questions asked, for 10 days. >I believe they have the same policy in the U.K, and Australia. >* rrevved at mindspring dot com >* unit.26 s.p.u.t.u.m. >* http://www.cabal.netTo the reverse issue listed below, that's quite a stretch. It appears
you're just trying to find something else to whine about there.
The reason for a separate key for reverse is obvious. Think about how it
works in a real car for a minute. You need to back up quickly, you (1) hit
the clutch (which isn't currently available to computer sims), (2) place the
shifter directly in reverse (something else not yet available in computer
sims). All of this simultaneously.
So, if you want that kind of convenience in a sim, then you need a separate
key. But, you're so smart, I guess you already new that.
Shannon T
the
> physics/handling of a Hot Wheel toys car to a production Ferrari. There is only so
> much movement allowed to the player that is needed to navigate a set course around
> the track... usually turning to the left. While I expected that, I didn't expect
> the same world constraints to be in place, nor the same damn physics engines of the
> previous Nascar games dating back to 1995 or 1996. Absolutely nothing has changed
> since then. The big thing about N3 seems to be "body roll" of some cars, which is
> nothing more than a graphics enhancement when a car reaches a certain steering
> angle, I'm sure. There is no independant wheel physics that I can feel. You
> basically feel like you're driving a train.
> Played a little more last night. You _know_ something's wrong when you have to set
> a separate button/control key to use reverse in a driving game instead of being
> able to shift to reverse using your shifter/shift paddle/button mapped to the
> shifter. Basically, using reverse doesn't even require the gas pedal be depressed.
> Lame beyond all belief.
> --
> -j.c.h.
> spill /|t frenzy dawt cawm
Quoted text (7 lines)
> > Not having N3 or NASCAR Rev.. I just wonder what the differences are? > > I'd assume the graphics are better in N3, so lets skip the graphics > > part. What about the physics? > Heya Mike... I occasionally race against you online in GPL. > Put simply, comparing N3 physics to GPL physics is similar to comparingThere has to be something different. A friend of mine has N2 and tried N3.
He has a cyrix 300MHz and can play N2 fine, but as for N3, not a chance.
I agree that this product doesn't constitute a new name, but that's
typically the way the computer market works in alot (not all) of cases.
Take the biggest yet, Win95 and Win98.
Just MHO..
Shannon T
ain't
Quoted text (11 lines)
> > Go play your GPL. Leave the real racing to us. > Heh. "Real racing"? I've raced not only oval track in San Antonio (HWY16 > Raceway), but also 4-wheelers, as well as taken a turn at drag racing. > As far as sims go, anyone who pits GPL against Nascar 3 (read as "arcade > wanna be") and compares them on a basis of 'reality' that actually _owns_ > both games would probably laugh until they bled at your above comment. > > The reason that the game > > does not seem that different from N1/N2 is that the old saying "If itQuoted text (24 lines)
> > broke, then don't fix it" applies. > This is your reasoning? > Bullshit. > The reason the game does not seem different is because it _isn't_ > different. I just examined the executable myself, comparing certain > sections with the Nascar 2 cd I still have, and to my suprise </sarcasm> > there are even certain segments in the binary that are mirror images of > Nascar 2. > It's an addon pack. Another lame attempt to make some serious cash by > dangling a Nascar emblem in front of potential software purchasers faces. > In other words, garbage. > > Get over it and stop your crying. > Count on it. It's going back tomorrow. > -- > -j.c.h.Just curious. Becuase I haven't, but have any of you actually done 180mph
on an oval track, or even 130 on a road course for that matter.
Just curious.. If so, then it's good to hear an honest opinion of what the
sim should be doing.
If not, then PLEASE quit telling us what it SHOULD feel like!
Shannon T
Quoted text (16 lines)
> On Wed, 22 Sep 1999 08:55:39 -0400, Michael Barlow > > Not having N3 or NASCAR Rev.. I just wonder what the differences are? > >I'd assume the graphics are better in N3, so lets skip the graphics > >part. What about the physics? > Straight up the physics in N3 are a joke. You can go flat out, nail > the brakes, drive through corners flat out, hit walls, spin, etc. > Nothing of them is even remotely real nor are most of the handling > adjustments. This is about the least realistic sim I have ever dealt > with this side of Pole Position.. Remember that one? It came out on > the Atari 2600 after debuting in an arcade? > ____________________ > Hydrogen and Stupidity.. The two most universal elements>This great return policy has given Electronics Boutique a large number
>of loyal followers myself included, I personally buy *all* my game software
>there, even though I can usually purchase it much cheaper at other stores.
Agreed. I returned N3 this morning with no hassles and traded it out
for another online game. They never give you any hassles though this
is perhaps the 2nd game I have ever returned on the basis that it
sucks (two others just because they didn't work).
The thing that will get to most retailers is that many people will go
out, buy the CD, burn a copy or 30,then return the original. That
means they get the game for basically free (as well as all their
friends) and the retailer is stuck with an opened unsuable box.
____________________
Hydrogen and Stupidity.. The two most universal elements
>Well, yes Texas is still a "country" but Louisiana is a "State". ;-) Paul
Sorry, that should have read 'it's IN Lou or Tex' :) Just remember,
everthing is big in Texas' :)
____________________
Hydrogen and Stupidity.. The two most universal elements
Quoted text (11 lines)
> To the reverse issue listed below, that's quite a stretch. It appears > you're just trying to find something else to whine about there. > The reason for a separate key for reverse is obvious. Think about how it > works in a real car for a minute. You need to back up quickly, you (1) hit > the clutch (which isn't currently available to computer sims), (2) place the > shifter directly in reverse (something else not yet available in computer > sims). All of this simultaneously. > So, if you want that kind of convenience in a sim, then you need a separate > key. But, you're so smart, I guess you already new that.As to the clutch I stand corrected.
But, (not counting the Act Labs Rally shifter which isn't quite out and
isn't yet supported, is it? :-)), you would still have to shift back, back,
back, back and then gas..
If you need reverse quick, you can't get it (as far as I'm aware) without a
key for it.
Shannon T
> To the reverse issue listed below, that's quite a stretch. It appears
> you're just trying to find something else to whine about there.
> The reason for a separate key for reverse is obvious. Think about how it
> works in a real car for a minute. You need to back up quickly, you (1) hit
> the clutch (which isn't currently available to computer sims), (2) place the
> shifter directly in reverse (something else not yet available in computer
> sims). All of this simultaneously.
> So, if you want that kind of convenience in a sim, then you need a separate
didn't
> expect
> > the same world constraints to be in place, nor the same damn physics
> engines of the
> > previous Nascar games dating back to 1995 or 1996. Absolutely nothing has
> changed
> > since then. The big thing about N3 seems to be "body roll" of some cars,
of
> being
> > able to shift to reverse using your shifter/shift paddle/button mapped to
Quoted text (22 lines)
> key. But, you're so smart, I guess you already new that. > Shannon T > > > Not having N3 or NASCAR Rev.. I just wonder what the differences are? > > > I'd assume the graphics are better in N3, so lets skip the graphics > > > part. What about the physics? > > Heya Mike... I occasionally race against you online in GPL. > > Put simply, comparing N3 physics to GPL physics is similar to comparing > the > > physics/handling of a Hot Wheel toys car to a production Ferrari. There > is only so > > much movement allowed to the player that is needed to navigate a set > course around > > the track... usually turning to the left. While I expected that, IQuoted text (10 lines)
> which is > > nothing more than a graphics enhancement when a car reaches a certain > steering > > angle, I'm sure. There is no independant wheel physics that I can feel. > You > > basically feel like you're driving a train. > > Played a little more last night. You _know_ something's wrong when you > have to set > > a separate button/control key to use reverse in a driving game insteadQuoted text (10 lines)
> the > > shifter. Basically, using reverse doesn't even require the gas pedal be > depressed. > > Lame beyond all belief. > > -- > > -j.c.h. > > spill /|t frenzy dawt cawmThree sims that I at least know of that use a clutch in its
true form are.
GP2
GPL
Viper Racing
It should have been in Nascar 3 along with reverse selectable
via the gear shifter.
--
Redline Race Controls
http://www.wave.co.nz/pages/lakewood/Redline2.htm
Nigel of Lakewood Motorsports
Hamilton
New Zealand
Rick you might want to give some GPL online leagues a try (in case you
haven't), you will find much closer racing that you can experience on your
average VROC pickup race.
Sometimes the racing is so close and clean that it amazes me, especially if
you are racing at Pro damage. Just as an example last weekend in one of the
GPL Leagues I race in, qualifying for an online PRO Long Mosport race,
.06 sec covered the top 4 places on the grid (six 1/100ths of a sec!)
That is how close the competition is, and these leagues are composed of
usually clean racers (pure hotlappers never finish enough to stay in the
points in leagues and usually quit), and you can feel comfortable going
wheel to wheel with the other league racers lap after lap because you've been
racing with them for the past few months and learn how they react to
different situations. Very different from the chaos and randomness of
pickup races on VROC, although those can often be fun too.
I definitely recommend anyone who races on VROC and has never tried an
online GPL league, do yourself a favor and try it, you'll be amazed.
I never thought I had enough time, commitment or concentration to run in
an online league, but was talked into trying it, all I can say is it's as
close to the real e***ment and sometimes pressure of *real life* racing
as I think I want to come :-)
Seeyas on the track.
--John (Joao) Silva
>The thing that will get to most retailers is that many people will go
>out, buy the CD, burn a copy or 30,then return the original. That
>means they get the game for basically free (as well as all their
>friends) and the retailer is stuck with an opened unsuable box.
True, especially with the relatively inexpensive CD burners out nowadays.
I always wondered what happened with the software that is returned, does
it go back to the Publisher or the programming house itself? wonder who
will get your N3 back, Sierra or Papyrus?
Maybe the number of returns on software gives the programmers some idea
of when marketing hype for the game was good enough that it sold, but the
number of returned copies shows that consumers were disappointed with the
game itself after falling prone to the initial marketing hype.
Seeyas on the track.
--John (Joao) Silva
>Geeez , go race yourself online for 40 minutes while waiting for someone to
>either wait up for you, or you wait up for someone , so you can actually see
>another car on the track. I love GPL for the pure fun of driving the cars.
>But if I want to actually race, I do it off-line with GPL. If I want great,
>competitive on-line racing, N3 is for me. That is the big difference between
>these two sims. N3 gives you the on-line racing experience, GPL gives you the
>realism.
>I love them both
>Rick Sweeney
Rick,well said. I've found that all too many gpl online races end up being
nothing more than a excersize in hot lapping. So I find myself spending
more and more time running off line races against a full field.
Joel Willstein
I'd wager that Papy got heavily into developement of
NASCAR 3 w/GPL physics, discovered it was just
gonna be a disaster to try and market it with "PII450
Minimum Requirements" and quickly did the most they
could with the tried n' true N2 engine to keep the sim
community from rioting. But, then again, I'm often
mistaken.
N3 is exactly what they said it was gonna be. What
exactly is your point? That they sold you exactly what
they said they were gonna sell you? Well...yer right.
They did. I think your critque should be copied and
saved to your hard drive for when NASCAR 4 comes
out (if it too uses the ol' N2 <cough> physics).
Personaly, I'd paid my $50 for free multiplayer and
the option to use the car of your choice in multiplayer.
--
Gritz
"Don't you smart me! Cuz when you smart me...
It ruins it."
Bernie Bernbaum
> > Hey whiner, tell me where to get a better NASCAR sim. Take it back to
> > Hastings and then shut up.
> Gee.
> There's an argument.
> Settling is bullshit. If it weren't for the screwy licensing system and
> the shear threat of having lawyers unleashed upon someone willing to ante
> up a better NASCAR sim, I'm sure this thing would have been outclassed or
> discontinued altogether before it's now lame pathetic third incarnation.
> Welcome to Usenet. Get used to reading opinions that differ from your
> own, genius. If you can't handle that, find another hobby.
> -j.c.h.
There is no way the average *** user could play GPL with 43 cars on
the track and not have a huge frame rate problem. Every users strives
for 30 fps. Nascar fields require 43 cars on at the same time. Yes
the GPl engine is great, yes its more "sim" than Nascar3. Many of us
like GPL, but also love racing against 42 other cars at 30 fps in
Nascar3.
Ex
Couldn't say it any better.
Ex
On Wed, 22 Sep 1999 14:37:18 -0400, "Shannon Tate"
180 on an oval? No. 130 on a road course? Yes. Will be doing it again
shortly at Sebring.
____________________
Hydrogen and Stupidity.. The two most universal elements
Quoted text (7 lines)
>Just curious. Becuase I haven't, but have any of you actually done 180mph >on an oval track, or even 130 on a road course for that matter. >Just curious.. If so, then it's good to hear an honest opinion of what the >sim should be doing. >If not, then PLEASE quit telling us what it SHOULD feel like!Fair enough, Ed.
The reason I ask (apart from just being starled by the concept!) is that
here it is not sufficient just to "not like" a game in order to have it
refunded/replaced. Some outlets (EB possibly) may do so but it is not a
requirement under our legislation...in this State anyway.
I was directly involved in the retail of entertainment software for about
seven years and we had a rather strict policy of not refunding/replacing
unless the software was faulty and certainly no reimbur***t in any shape
or form (if the box was opened) simply because of an "I don't like it"
reason.
There was (obviously) a rather annoyed reaction to this policy, to the
extent that we even had to explain the reason to the consumer affairs body.
The reason was simple: unlike a toaster, electric shaver, coffee-maker etc.,
an opened package of software allowed the purchaser to copy the contents (be
it CD or floppy) so therefore to replace the contents simply on the basis of
dislike was leaving us open to exploitation.
After this was introduced the number of returns, particularly from juvenile
customers, dropped significantly.
BK
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Quoted text (15 lines)
> On Wed, 22 Sep 1999 20:31:15 +1000, > >In the USA, as a general rule can you simply return software because you > >don't like it? > >If so, you have some very liberal consumer laws. > No, its up to the merchant. Electronics Boutique, for example, > will accept opened returns, no questions asked, for 10 days. > I believe they have the same policy in the U.K, and Australia. > * rrevved at mindspring dot com > * unit.26 s.p.u.t.u.m. > * http://www.cabal.netDunno. Ask them, Bob.
BK
> Then my question is: why did these geniuses go out and buy it anyway and THEN ***
whilst
baggy skin"
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Quoted text (11 lines)
> about it? > > The detractors are saying what a lot of others were saying prior to its > > release: that compared to what preceeded it, N3 is not a _major_ > > improvement over N2. > > It seems to me that this argument is based on the fact that these people > > have all experienced the heights of realism offered by GPL and N3,Quoted text (11 lines)
> > containing "improvements" over N2, is still on a far lower plateau. > > Just the opinion of a disinterested party. > > BK > -- > Bob Curtin > Worcester Area Strategy & Tactics Exchange > http://www.tiac.net/users/ten10ths/ > "If God had intended men to join the Army he would have given us green,(snip)
The thing that will get to most retailers is that many people will go
out, buy the CD, burn a copy or 30,then return the original. That
means they get the game for basically free (as well as all their
friends) and the retailer is stuck with an opened unsuable box.
(unsnip)
EXACTLY the reason we refused to refund on opened boxes!! (See seperate
post)
BK
> >This great return policy has given Electronics Boutique a large number
> >of loyal followers myself included, I personally buy *all* my game software
> >there, even though I can usually purchase it much cheaper at other stores.
> Agreed. I returned N3 this morning with no hassles and traded it out
> for another online game. They never give you any hassles though this
> is perhaps the 2nd game I have ever returned on the basis that it
> sucks (two others just because they didn't work).
> >Overall, I think it's great that we are able to return software that is not up
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Quoted text (13 lines)
> >to par, especially with the number of unfinished titles that seem to be > >rushed to market each X-mas in unfinished condition, this however doesn't > >mean consumers should abuse it and ignore the responsibility of looking > >at previews and reviews of titles before they buy them so that they know > >in advance what to expect. > The thing that will get to most retailers is that many people will go > out, buy the CD, burn a copy or 30,then return the original. That > means they get the game for basically free (as well as all their > friends) and the retailer is stuck with an opened unsuable box. > ____________________ > Hydrogen and Stupidity.. The two most universal elementsWell, in that case it most certainly is extremely liberal and is most
definitely biased against the retailer.
> > On Wed, 22 Sep 1999 20:31:15 +1000,
> > >In the USA, as a general rule can you simply return software because you
-----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ==----------
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Quoted text (33 lines)
> > >don't like it? > > >If so, you have some very liberal consumer laws. > > No, its up to the merchant. Electronics Boutique, for example, > > will accept opened returns, no questions asked, for 10 days. > > I believe they have the same policy in the U.K, and Australia. > > * rrevved at mindspring dot com > > * unit.26 s.p.u.t.u.m. > > * http://www.cabal.net > In the US, it is the law that anything a consumer buys can be returned > for a full refund as long as it's returned with in (I think it is...) 10 > days. no matter what the condition the product is in when being > returned. It's one of those laws that the > corporations/stores/dealers.... don't want you to know about. This also > includes buying a Ferrari at 200,000.00. You can crash that ferrari and > return it for a full refund with in 10(?) days. We found that out while > looking for stupid and still active laws. Did you know it's illegal to > hunt wild Zebra in NYS? ;-) > -- > ========================================= > Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing? > ========================================= > Racing online with the help of...... > Race Communications Association > http://members.xoom.com/RCA/toc.html > Holodyne Engineering > Mystic Music > (have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here)Quoted text (13 lines)
>On Wed, 22 Sep 1999 14:37:18 -0400, "Shannon Tate" >>Just curious. Becuase I haven't, but have any of you actually done 180mph >>on an oval track, or even 130 on a road course for that matter. >>Just curious.. If so, then it's good to hear an honest opinion of what the >>sim should be doing. >>If not, then PLEASE quit telling us what it SHOULD feel like! >180 on an oval? No. 130 on a road course? Yes. Will be doing it again >shortly at Sebring.Quoted text (12 lines)
>On Tue, 21 Sep 1999 21:46:42 -0500, "Gary A. Burns" >That old cliche could apply, but then "If it ain't broke and hasn't >been fixed, why pay for it all over again? N3 is pretty cool, and >somewhat improved compared to N2, but there's no doubt it could have >been so much better if offering the same involvement and driving >dynamics as GPL. >Surely you can't disagree with that? >Cheers! >JohnQuoted text (7 lines)
>> Not having N3 or NASCAR Rev.. I just wonder what the differences are? >> I'd assume the graphics are better in N3, so lets skip the graphics >> part. What about the physics? >Heya Mike... I occasionally race against you online in GPL.... >....Put simply, comparing N3 physics to GPL physics is similar to comparingQuoted text (13 lines)
> In the US, it is the law that anything a consumer buys can be returned >for a full refund as long as it's returned with in (I think it is...) 10 >days. no matter what the condition the product is in when being >returned. It's one of those laws that the >corporations/stores/dealers.... don't want you to know about. This also >includes buying a Ferrari at 200,000.00. You can crash that ferrari and >return it for a full refund with in 10(?) days. We found that out while >looking for stupid and still active laws. Did you know it's illegal to >hunt wild Zebra in NYS? ;-) >-- >========================================= >Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing? >=========================================Quoted text (7 lines)
> (snip) > The thing that will get to most retailers is that many people will go > out, buy the CD, burn a copy or 30,then return the original. That > means they get the game for basically free (as well as all their > friends) and the retailer is stuck with an opened unsuable box. > (unsnip)On Fri, 24 Sep 1999 07:07:03 +0300, Toni Lassila
Not all but there are quite a few who are. Ever heard of warez or
software pirating? Now that CD burners are so cheap and easy to use
you can bet your retail dollar that a high degree of illegal copies
are being made.
____________________
Hydrogen and Stupidity.. The two most universal elements
Quoted text (9 lines)
>> (snip) >> The thing that will get to most retailers is that many people will go >> out, buy the CD, burn a copy or 30,then return the original. That >> means they get the game for basically free (as well as all their >> friends) and the retailer is stuck with an opened unsuable box. >> (unsnip) >What a nice assumption to base business on: All customers are criminals!Ahem! Excuse me, but that wasn't what the poster (not me, by the way!) was
saying.
He was saying that _MANY_ poeple will do it....which was exactly as we
found. Note! "MANY".....not "ALL".
How on earth you arrive at the conclusion, "all customers are criminals",
beggars belief!
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Quoted text (12 lines)
> > (snip) > > The thing that will get to most retailers is that many people will go > > out, buy the CD, burn a copy or 30,then return the original. That > > means they get the game for basically free (as well as all their > > friends) and the retailer is stuck with an opened unsuable box. > > (unsnip) > What a nice assumption to base business on: All customers are criminals! > -- > Toni Lassila>That is how close the competition is, and these leagues are composed of
>usually clean racers (pure hotlappers never finish enough to stay in the
>points in leagues and usually quit), and you can feel comfortable going
<snip>
Oh no, here we go again. :)
--
Greger Huttu
These days, that assumption is not far off.
--
Bob Curtin
Worcester Area Strategy & Tactics Exchange
http://www.tiac.net/users/ten10ths/
"If God had intended men to join the Army he would have given us green,
baggy skin"
Quoted text (12 lines)
> > (snip) > > The thing that will get to most retailers is that many people will go > > out, buy the CD, burn a copy or 30,then return the original. That > > means they get the game for basically free (as well as all their > > friends) and the retailer is stuck with an opened unsuable box. > > (unsnip) > What a nice assumption to base business on: All customers are criminals! > -- > Toni LassilaTotally true John, I still think that even if I was one of the person who
was the most against the old game engine in N3, they took the correct
decision. N3 is still a _solid_ title. It's better than most of the racing
games on the market, and has sometimes few games have, all-around :
Gameplay. Look at how deep it is, whatever if it's an upgrade or not.
Nascar 1 was years ahead of anything, and N2 also was. It's normal that
because of the old game engine this factor has come down a little, but it's
still a quality title that few *** companies produce. I hope N3 sells
well, this way we could finally have something else than mostly stockcar
titles by Papyrus. There was a shortage of Stock-car titles on the market
for Christmas, they knew they could split the HQ into different projects and
still continue R&D on N4 and the new game engine. It's only about a year
away :)
Im totally pleased about N3, but at the moment I have not bought it, for
many reasons, including the poor implementation of online racing and the
4years backward step it currently has. "has" is the correct term :)
--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
>Oh no, here we go again. :)
>--
>Greger Huttu
Hehe, let me correct myself Greger (as I've seen you in action before :-)
*MOST* pure hotlappers don't do well in leagues since they crash a lot, but
there are some amazing Senna'ish hotlappers whose names I won't mention <G>,
who somehow have the capability to crack out a blazing qualifying lap, yet
also drive consistently fast and clean in the races themselves and do well in
leagues too, to the utter amazement of the rest of us less talented drivers :-)
However, your average mortal, aggressive pure hotlapper you may see in a VROC
pickup race, crash inducing, tailgate-you-into-Monza-T1-on-Lap1-outofcontrol-
-Lotus-driver (forgive for the bad stereotype ;-) will have a hard time
finishing consistently in league races and usually quit after the third or
fourth DNF, and if you want to race in an environment where these type of
racers are really the exception, I would encourage people to give GPL Leagues
a try, (especially Leagues that race with PRO damage).
I agree with Rob, N3 by being easier to drive, does allow close online racing.
Pure hotlap racers can race closely with other online racers without causing
accidents as often since the fine line between fast and out of control is
much fuzzier in N3 than in GPL (due to the more forgiving and unmodeled
physics of N3), *but* this kind of "close" online racing is possible and does
occur often in GPL if you surround yourself with quality clean GPL racers.
Seeyas on the track.
--John (Joao) Silva
GPL Ferrari driver.
Powerslide Racing Team - GMSS League F1 division.
Rossi Razzi Racing Team - IGPLC League F2 division.
I bought N3 a week ago and it seems to be an upgrade that's just about the same
as N2 was to N1. The 1024 x 768 resolution is beautiful and my system handles
it very smoothly. Perhaps it's my imagination, but just racing with the traffic
seems more "NASCAR-like" It could just be the graphics have lulled me into a
deja-vu stupor. I've only had a week on the thing, but I like it, and the more
I run it the more I like it.
--
Bob Curtin
Worcester Area Strategy & Tactics Exchange
http://www.tiac.net/users/ten10ths/
"If God had intended men to join the Army he would have given us green, baggy
skin"
Quoted text (24 lines)
> Totally true John, I still think that even if I was one of the person who > was the most against the old game engine in N3, they took the correct > decision. N3 is still a _solid_ title. It's better than most of the racing > games on the market, and has sometimes few games have, all-around : > Gameplay. Look at how deep it is, whatever if it's an upgrade or not. > Nascar 1 was years ahead of anything, and N2 also was. It's normal that > because of the old game engine this factor has come down a little, but it's > still a quality title that few *** companies produce. I hope N3 sells > well, this way we could finally have something else than mostly stockcar > titles by Papyrus. There was a shortage of Stock-car titles on the market > for Christmas, they knew they could split the HQ into different projects and > still continue R&D on N4 and the new game engine. It's only about a year > away :) > Im totally pleased about N3, but at the moment I have not bought it, for > many reasons, including the poor implementation of online racing and the > 4years backward step it currently has. "has" is the correct term :) > -- > -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."> >What a nice assumption to base business on: All customers are criminals!
> Not all but there are quite a few who are. Ever heard of warez or
> software pirating? Now that CD burners are so cheap and easy to use
> you can bet your retail dollar that a high degree of illegal copies
> are being made.
Then only enable opened-returns for trusted customers who often buy stuff
and don't return too much. It's the same thing here with mail-order:
basically you can buy anything you want, use it for 7 days (and copy to a
CD-R) and then return it; says so in the law. It's just that if you return
too much stuff, they refuse to sell you anything.
--
Toni Lassila
> He was saying that _MANY_ poeple will do it....which was exactly as we
> found. Note! "MANY".....not "ALL".
> How on earth you arrive at the conclusion, "all customers are criminals",
> beggars belief!
> > What a nice assumption to base business on: All customers are criminals!
Stripping money-paying customers of their legal right to return a faulty
(i.e. buggy as hell) game is no excuse for preventing piratism, as much as
I loath it.
--
Toni Lassila
>Good grief what a let down.
>Been playing Nascar 3 on my system for about 3 hours now.
Makes you quite the veteran, huh? j/k
A COUPLE of chassis settings?! I defy you to go tell me the
car handles exactly the same with 30% tape and 0% tape at Talledaga.
Actually, I can hear at least 2 other distinct cars around ME
when in traffic. And I can't imagine WHERE you get the idea that N1's
sounds are better...
That's pretty much what it takes to get out from behind a car
that's only a few inches in front of you without backing up!
First off - aren't you USING a steering wheel?! Why on earth
would you want ANOTHER wheel onscreen? I detest those games that have
sterring wheels in the***pit (NasRev et al.), and I know I'm not
alone in that... They obviously kept the displays the same for those
of us who've been running this since N1. new keys are unnecessary. I
agree, though that the displays are a little short. I wish we could
get BOTH "Best Lap" and "Last Lap" speeds onscreen at the same time.
Actually looking at the alternative view of that information
(especially F2-Position and pressing ENTER to see the position of the
car in front of you) is EXTEREMELY useful! I prefer to know if the
car in front of me is behind me or not and how FAR behind me they are
(or how far in FRONT of me they are).
While not "pathetic," I agree it's undermodelled. I have had
quite a bit of debris fly off in some crashes, tho...
Well, first off, I bought N1 right after it came out - $40US,
I think. then I bought N2 within its first few days - $49 IIRC. Held
out for Nas50th that cost me $35, but I sold N2 for $20, so its net
was $15. Got N99 for FREE after the rebate. Got N3 for $39 the day
after it came out. So to ME... 40+49+35-20+39 for (how many?) years
enjoyment and pay for it in installments is a pretty fair trade-off.
I've seen people drop $70 for a night at the movies, THEN $30 for
movie tickets, then $50-60 more for drinks afterwards and they're done
the same night (I'll leave out the oh-too-easy snide remarks).
Sorry you were so unimpressed with it - but others of us are
VERY happy with it.
Gunner
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>Not only that, but I consider the people here to be the lucky few who actually use >Usenet to their best advantage when they can. What about the other people who >don't use this for any kind of reference? Seems that quite a few of the "*** >news" (used VERY loosely) sites are raving about how wonderful NASCAR 3 i and what >a breakthrough in *** technology the program is an example of. Makes me wonder >the age of the author of said articles, and whether or not they've ever even >installed one of the other "versions" in this series.> These days, that assumption is not far off.
> > What a nice assumption to base business on: All customers are criminals!
Then you're in the wrong line of business!
--
Toni Lassila
I know.... it's the magic word: Gravis Ultrasound
sounds with GUS were good, but SB sounds were bad IMO :)
Lets go back a few years Joel. Mid 94'. Fastest current retail CPU was a
Pentium 90Mhz (P54C), MS was developing a new API called WinG (to become
DirectX). No consumer level 3d accelerators, typical PC had 8MB RAM. Now
out comes Nascar1. To run it with acceptable frame rates (using above hdw
cfg)had to turn off most detail. Now zoom ahead to present day. P3's
approaching 700Mhz, 3D accel std, 64MB RAM min. I just don't buy the
reasoning regarding hardware req's for a Nascar title using GPL physics.
This based on what papy has done in the past.
BTW, after running n3 for just a few minutes I was very disappointed. Since
then though I've realized that N3 is much more than jsut a redone N1. To me
the single biggest difference (there are many) is there are now multiple
"fast" lines around most tracks. Nothing better than runnin high groove at
Mich :)
But I still eagerly anticipate N4, but have something to occupy my time till
it arrives.
Mitch
but then "If it ain't broke and hasn't
he
> gpl physics engine would require a more powerful system than any of us have.
Quoted text (13 lines)
> >been fixed, why pay for it all over again? N3 is pretty cool, and > >somewhat improved compared to N2, but there's no doubt it could have > >been so much better if offering the same involvement and driving > >dynamics as GPL. > >Surely you can't disagree with that? > >Cheers! > >John > John, > We're back to the same topic from months and months ago. Nascar3 withQuoted text (7 lines)
> Personally, I feel that Sierra/Papyrus made the right decision. I find > Nas3 much improved over N2. But if I had to turn off most of the graphics > and cut back on everything else just to be able to get decent frame rates > with the gpl physics engine,then I would have passed on purchasing Nas3 > until I upgraded again. And I only upgrade once per year. > Joel WillsteinOn Fri, 24 Sep 1999 22:06:07 +0300, Toni Lassila
As a computer retailer myself, I have to follow the dictates
of my distributors: none that _I_ deal with accept open box returns,
and I have no way to re-shrinkwrap them for resale. Therefore I can't
take back a program someone wants to return because they didn't like
it. And trust me: it's in MY bottom line to "eat" returns. lol
Oklahoma used to have a "3 Day Right of Rescension Law" that
said you could return ANYthing if brought back in the SAME condition
it was bought - I did that with a mobile home in 1984.
Gunner
Quoted text (10 lines)
>> He was saying that _MANY_ poeple will do it....which was exactly as we >> found. Note! "MANY".....not "ALL". >> How on earth you arrive at the conclusion, "all customers are criminals", >> beggars belief! >> > What a nice assumption to base business on: All customers are criminals! >Stripping money-paying customers of their legal right to return a faulty >(i.e. buggy as hell) game is no excuse for preventing piratism, as much as >I loath it.Quoted text (26 lines)
> On Fri, 24 Sep 1999 22:06:07 +0300, Toni Lassila > >> He was saying that _MANY_ poeple will do it....which was exactly as we > >> found. Note! "MANY".....not "ALL". > >> How on earth you arrive at the conclusion, "all customers are criminals", > >> beggars belief! > >> > What a nice assumption to base business on: All customers are criminals! > >Stripping money-paying customers of their legal right to return a faulty > >(i.e. buggy as hell) game is no excuse for preventing piratism, as much as > >I loath it. > As a computer retailer myself, I have to follow the dictates > of my distributors: none that _I_ deal with accept open box returns, > and I have no way to re-shrinkwrap them for resale. Therefore I can't > take back a program someone wants to return because they didn't like > it. And trust me: it's in MY bottom line to "eat" returns. lol > Oklahoma used to have a "3 Day Right of Rescension Law" that > said you could return ANYthing if brought back in the SAME condition > it was bought - I did that with a mobile home in 1984. > GunnerHere.
.........................
You might want to use a few occasionally.
> > On Fri, 24 Sep 1999 22:06:07 +0300, Toni Lassila
> > >> He was saying that _MANY_ poeple will do it....which was exactly as we
> > >> found. Note! "MANY".....not "ALL".
> > >> How on earth you arrive at the conclusion, "all customers are criminals",
> > >> beggars belief!
> > >> > What a nice assumption to base business on: All customers are criminals!
> > >Stripping money-paying customers of their legal right to return a faulty
> > >(i.e. buggy as hell) game is no excuse for preventing piratism, as much as
let them
> know you hate it and you will get a refund no problem according to their website.
> Michael
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Quoted text (14 lines)
> > >I loath it. > > As a computer retailer myself, I have to follow the dictates > > of my distributors: none that _I_ deal with accept open box returns, > > and I have no way to re-shrinkwrap them for resale. Therefore I can't > > take back a program someone wants to return because they didn't like > > it. And trust me: it's in MY bottom line to "eat" returns. lol > > Oklahoma used to have a "3 Day Right of Rescension Law" that > > said you could return ANYthing if brought back in the SAME condition > > it was bought - I did that with a mobile home in 1984. > > Gunner > What is the big deal Sierra guarantees all there games for 30 days justOn Thu, 23 Sep 1999 09:19:07 -0400, "Joel Willstein"
> We're back to the same topic from months and months ago. Nascar3 with he
>gpl physics engine would require a more powerful system than any of us have.
I somewhat agree (although I'd rather run less cars and have GPL
physics!) but the original assertion was that N3 was about as good as
it could have been, to which I responded in disagreement. With the GPL
engine it could have been far better.
Perhaps - I tend to upgrade pretty constantly to do it in the most
cost-effective manner, but that probably won't suit everyone. For me
the loss of "feel" that GPL gives is almost insurmountable, and no
matter what else was added to N3 I doubt in my case it could have
replaced what was lost.
Cheers!
John
>What is the big deal Sierra guarantees all there games for 30 days just let
>them
>know you hate it and you will get a refund no problem according to their
>website.
>Michael
Has anyone actually DONE this, and gotten a refund - no questions asked?
Eldred
__
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