Greg Moore Dies in CART crash....

After Gonzales looses his life at Laguna Sega a month ago today Greg Moore died in a high speed crash at Montana. Cart really has to do something about their safety standards... -- Sjon 'Pierce' Stigter __________________________________ ICQ: 3937030 IRC: Pierce __________________________________

It is definately a sad and tragic thing. However i dont know that is the saftey standards...i mean he was going around 240 when he hit the wall. Sure there could be improvements but its still a huge G-Force accident. It definately opens a door for debate though. Sad that someone has to die for it to come into consideration.. Chris

I don't think that much of anything short of a miracle could have saved Greg's life in this crash. That car hit the wall with what appeared to be the top of the car while airborne. Dan Belcher Team Racing Unlimited http://members.xoom.com/simcrash1/simcrash

You can't stop the damage from an accident like that, but you can put restrictions into the cars to help prevent some of these tragic accidents (engine size limits, exhaust limits, air foil and wing limits....etc). Maybe nothing could have prevented this particular accident, but I think you all know what I mean. Aaron Gillum #72 RDOS

Well, had the car no flipped in the first place, the same thing would have happened to him as to what had happened to Richie Hearn a few laps earlier. My point, after looking at the replay at ESPN, it would appear that when the car went across the safety road (you can see the smoke from the brakes on the asphalt in the replay), it would appear that his wheel(s)caught on the grass, causing the car to flip. That was the exact spot where Hearn crossed the safety road, and maybe it had an effect of getting airborne. In a nutshell, maybe if that entire area (like Daytona after Wallace flipped 20 something times a few years ago) was asphalt the likelyhood of the car flipping would be greatly reduced.... Dave

That is certainly true, and in the case of open wheel racing, the problem is only magnified because there is no real way to protect the heads and upper bodies of the drivers. In all honesty, there is no real way to prevent an accident like Moore's, as even if he had been going slower, the way the car hit the wall, he had no chance.....what a shame.... Dave

that's Fontana....

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> After Gonzales looses his life at Laguna Sega a month ago today Greg Moore > died in a high speed crash at Montana. > Cart really has to do something about their safety standards... > -- Sjon 'Pierce' Stigter > __________________________________ > ICQ: 3937030 > IRC: Pierce > __________________________________

But that is one of my major questions. CART implemented the Hanford device and tunnel blockers to bring down speeds on the straights. They've mandated the use of superspeedway wings on short ovals in order to reduce cornering speeds. To a somewhat limited extent, this has worked. Except that you now have cars turning 230 MPH+ laps on the superspeedways (which is almost where we were before the Hanford device) except that they have HALF the downforce that they used to. Situations that might be more controllable or recoverable with more downforce aren't. Now we have drivers downshifting into the corners on short ovals. Just ask Christian Fittipaldi how safe that could be. I'm not trying to blast CART for what they've done in the name of safety, but sometimes I wonder if there might be some other approach that would work better. > > It is definately a sad and tragic thing. However i dont know that is the

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> > saftey standards...i mean he was going around 240 when he hit the wall. > Sure > > there could be improvements but its still a huge G-Force accident. It > > definately opens a door for debate though. Sad that someone has to die > for it > > to come into consideration.. > > Chris > You can't stop the damage from an accident like that, but you can put > restrictions into the cars to help prevent some of these tragic accidents > (engine size limits, exhaust limits, air foil and wing limits....etc). > Maybe nothing could have prevented this particular accident, but I think

you > all know what I mean. > Aaron Gillum > #72 RDOS

Sad, sad news and I'm sure I speak for fellow Canadians as well as car racing fans. Here are a few things on the subject that are my own opinion on this day filled with such great tragedy. 1. The drivers know what their up against before they get in the car and remeber this, "car racing can be made safer but never safe" (not sure who was quoted saying that, but a great quote). 2. The grass to ashpault back to grass strip on the infield acted like a ramp (remember Rubens Barrachello at imola in 94 ramping off the high curb?) sending the car up in the air. 3. Lucky for Richie Hearn, his car almost flipped at the same point some ten laps earlier 4. Lets hope they add a few tires to the walls on the infield in the future....................

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>After Gonzales looses his life at Laguna Sega a month ago today Greg Moore >died in a high speed crash at Montana. >Cart really has to do something about their safety standards... >-- Sjon 'Pierce' Stigter >__________________________________ >ICQ: 3937030 >IRC: Pierce >__________________________________

All racing is dangerous. Open wheel racing is extremely dangerous. I agree that all reasonable measures should be taken to protect participants and spectators, but tragic incidents like the Greg Moore crash will occur as long as there is racing. If it could be guaranteed that there would be no deaths or serious injuries, it would not be the same sport. Rest in peace, Greg Moore.

Well this is probably what caused the crash in the first place. The cars generate about 2000 lbs of downforce after restrictions were put in place. They ised to produce 4000 lbs... -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com > Maybe nothing could have prevented this particular accident, but I think you > all know what I mean. > Aaron Gillum > #72 RDOS

Correct. I taped the race and was unfortunate enough to play back the crash in super slow-mo. It is not recommended unless you want to have night-mares... -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

> You can't stop the damage from an accident like that, but you can put > restrictions into the cars to help prevent some of these tragic accidents > (engine size limits, exhaust limits, air foil and wing limits....etc). > Maybe nothing could have prevented this particular accident, but I think you > all know what I mean. > Aaron Gillum > #72 RDOS Aaron, I agree,Moores accident was tragic. Unfortunately,he hit the wall with the***pit side facing it. I'm quite sure he was dead on impact. Open wheel racing on ovals will always be dangerous,especially at todays speeds. There are no easy answers or solutions. You can't take the racing out of racing. You can line the inside walls with tires like in Europe. But what do you do about the outside walls? One thing is for sure. Way too many drivers and spectators died this year. And if the racing associations,drivers associations,and tracks don't do something,you can bet that the insurance companies will. Joel Willstein

I think one of the contributing factors to Greg's death was the car flipping over just before it hit the concrete wall. If the car would have hit the wall while on it's correct plane his chance of survival may have been a little better. Maybe CART needs to do something with the use of grass in the infield. It does nothing to slow down the cars. Imagine if the area of grass Greg's car traveled thru before hitting the wall would have been replaced with gravel trap.

On Sun, 31 Oct 1999 19:21:31 -0500, "Dave St.Onge" >Well, had the car no flipped in the first place, the same thing would have >happened to him as to what had happened to Richie Hearn a few laps earlier. >My point, after looking at the replay at ESPN, it would appear that when the >car went across the safety road (you can see the smoke from the brakes on >the asphalt in the replay), It also seemed that Greg hit the concrete wall at an even worse angle than Richie did. By the way, I can't understand why they built the exit for the safety car right after turn 1 - Greg probably wouldn't have survived it either, but as the wall opened an exit the impact angle was almost 90 IMHO. I almost turned off my TV when I saw his accident, I was sure he didn't have a chance of survival (apparently, so did ESPN, at least they didn't zoom onto the wreck later, and showed only one replay). It was the worst accident I ever saw, it was terrible seeing him sliding, live on TV, upside down, into that barrier, almost sure that this were the last seconds of his life... :( The day started so well with Hakkinen's victory, and ended in such a tragedy... very sad Daniel -- ICQ UIN: 30333508 http://www.topofgames.de || http://danielshome.cjb.net

I've recorded too, but I've to say that even in case of lateral impact the G-force would have been too big for a human being: the car has literally bounded back. Stefano

CART really MUST do something, you can't protect drivers from the outer walls as Joel said but why were there no tyres on the inside walls? ok so the majority of the accidents are from hitting outer walls but how do you weigh up the cost of installing tyres on interior walls even if it only saves one life a year..that life could have been Gregs...I'm just a stunned British CART fan who sat up to watch a great show of motor racing but instead watched a great racer die Revvin

Although I don't believe there is any one thing that could have made that impact not life threatening I also think everything that could make CART racing safer should be exercised. I don't know the best way to slow them down. But making them harder to control is NOT the best way. Although infield wall crashes aren't as common, grass doesn't allow much control and doesn't do much to slow a vehicle down. How about gravel or sand traps or even asphalt instead of grass? Is there a way to make a better roll cage without limiting vision or taking away from the tradition of open wheel racing machines? If the current roll bar sticks into the ground during a roll their is nothing left to protect the drivers head and neck area. I believe Gonzales would have had allot better chance with more roll cage. Racing will never be completely safe, but we must try everything possible to make it safer all the time. In Moore's crash the angle and velocity of impact was so strait on I don't believe any kind of roll cage or car safety device could have helped. Although with a better run off surface and softer barrier and a more protecting cage maybe it could have been less severe.

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> After Gonzales looses his life at Laguna Sega a month ago today Greg Moore > died in a high speed crash at Montana. > Cart really has to do something about their safety standards... > -- Sjon 'Pierce' Stigter > __________________________________ > ICQ: 3937030 > IRC: Pierce > __________________________________

there is a News Group/mailing list that discuses Racing safety in every aspect.. roll cages, pavements, walls, grassy areas, ect.. Go here to find the latest poop on the accident and discussions on prevention's of, ect.. http://www.egroups.com/group/tmoi/ -- ========================================= Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing? ========================================= http://members.xoom.com/BarlowRacing/ Racing online with the help of...... Race Communications Association Holodyne Engineering Mystic Music (have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here)

Kevin> I'm not trying to blast CART for what they've done in Kevin> the name of safety, but sometimes I wonder if there might Kevin> be some other approach that would work better. I agree! My biggest complaint about saftey in modern racing is, some of the things they are doing are making the cars less safe. Don't get me wrong, crashes are a lot more "livable" now then in the past, but why would you ever want to *reduce* downforce in the name of saftey??? I mean really, what you end up with, is a car with a higher achevable speed (on the straights) that dosen't stick to the road as well when it's cornering. If you want to slow the cars down, *and* create some great racing, *increase* the downforce. If your pushing a large wing you just can't go as fast in a straight line, your less likely to lose it in a corner, and hopefully at least a *little* bit more speed would be dissapated if you crash. Now here's the ironic part, I really don't think that Greg Moore's accident can be blamed on a lack of safety equipment. From what I haven seen of him racing, he would take what ever car he was given as far as it can go, and met with the unluckiest of fates. -- Chris Bayly | 151 General Services Building | University of Alberta Web: http://www.tec.ualberta.ca/~cb/ | Edmonton, Alberta | Canada T6G 2S7

<<Don't get me wrong, crashes are a lot more "livable" now then in the past, but why would you ever want to *reduce* downforce in the name of saftey???>> The problem lies in the fact that many of the guys making the rules are racing enthusiasts and not former drivers who know how the cars actually feel. Bernie Ecclestone & Max Mosely immediately come to mind. <<If you want to slow the cars down, *and* create some great racing, *increase* the downforce.>> I thought CART had a plan to downsize the engines to 2.0L a few years ago, but nothing ever really materialized. <<If your pushing a large wing you just can't go as fast in a straight line, your less likely to lose it in a corner, and hopefully at least a *little* bit more speed would be dissapated if you crash.>> Unfortunately, the results aren't as great as you may think. I read an article in Racer Magazine about a year ago about this exact thing. If they hit at 240mph, it's akin to hitting a wall head-on at 40mph. If they hit at 220mph, it's akin to hitting a wall head-on at 38-39mph. There wasn't much of a difference. Personally, I think the cars are too fast to be at California and Michigan, anyway. Nothing short of making them run with half the plugs out is going to slow them more than 220mph for average lap speeds at these two tracks. Nick _____________________________________________________________ #6, #99, #94 (& #17 in '00) in the quest for the Cup My home away from home... http://ntotoro.home.mindspring.com/ _____________________________________________________________

Both Bernie and Max were drivers not good ones but they were drivers. They went to owning teams, Bernie owned Brabham and Max was with March for years and now the are in Administrative roles. The handford device creates drag and reduces downforce. It keeps speeds down in turns and when running alone that cars go slower down the striaghts then they did with speedway wings. The problem is it creates a very big hole in the air behind the car and it really promotes drafting. Actaully its a pretty good solution since it creates drag and reduces downforce in one fell swoop. The problem is when running in a crowd it removes a lot of front dowforce from the following cars. At Michigan last year you had some great racing 62 offical lead changes cars running very close. You also had some pretty good shunts one which cost some spectators their lives. Dave