What is a sim?

I see some people say "Game X is not a sim because of Y observation". It reminds me of the old "True 3D" go around with Doom, Quake, Duke3d, etc. To me, everything from pole position to the full cab professional simulators are all sims. What's different is the quality of the simulation. Dirt Track Racing for example is a simulation of Dirt Track Racing on the PC. If you want to say it's not a very good simulation, fine. But to say it's not a simulation of Dirt Track Racing I think is kind of silly. Could it be better? Yes. Show me any software that could *not* be better. Maybe GPL isn't a sim because the road surface is always perfectly smooth. No cracks or rough patches in the road surfaces. The only time your suspension moves is from cornering or accelerating/decelerating. glen

> I see some people say "Game X is not a sim because of Y observation". > It reminds me of the old "True 3D" go around with Doom, Quake, Duke3d, etc. > To me, everything from pole position to the full cab professional simulators > are all sims. What's different is the quality of the simulation. For me, a SIM is in the physics.... Pole Position was an arcade GAME because it was just stand on the gas and turn the wheel and every now and then consider that brake thingy.... GPL is a SIM because the car responds (as accurately as the programming can duplicate) as a real 1300lb, 400hp car would. Traction, speed, weight shift, engine rpm, etc. are all taken into account to make the car react. Some SIMs do this better than others, but if accurate physics is the focus, I'm there. The NASCAR parade are all SIM's for the same reason, the physics are at least attempted to be modeled accurately. Indy500 is a SIM, Hard Drivin' (anybody else used to get drunk off their ***and spend a couple hours seeing who could DWI better? :o) is a SIM. A GAME on the other hand does not put the main focus on the accuracy of the physics and response of the vehicle. Some of them do pay at least some attention to the details but the overall "point" is not in how the vehicle reacts to input. Interstate76 is a good example. It's an enjoyable GAME and made better because of the added detail in the way the car responds to driver control and damage, but it is not a SIM. Need For Speed is a GAME. Big Red Racing is a uh, it's a, ummm - just what the hell is it anyway? Haven't seen DTR so can't say what I'd call it Like you say, no matter how good it is, it can always be better.... but GPL does take into account elevation - maybe not surface imperfections, but the suspension does respond according to the hills.... FLUGPLATZ! :o)

>I see some people say "Game X is not a sim because of Y observation". >It reminds me of the old "True 3D" go around with Doom, Quake, Duke3d, etc. >To me, everything from pole position to the full cab professional simulators >are all sims. What's different is the quality of the simulation. In this newsgroup anyway, a car racing game is either classified as a sim or an arcade racer. That's the two distinctions. The quality of the physics engines is somewhat subjective, but objectively, I think if the car setup can be modified with tire pressure changes, suspension changes, engine mods, etc., and the changes make a difference in the way the vehicle performs, then it's considered a sim and not arcade. However, I could be wrong... <remove 7of9 for e-mail replies> -- Bill Jones e-mail addresses: (860) 701-1201 WWW: http://pages.cthome.net/billj

For most of us it's true. I consider such thing as Indy500: The simulator as a simulator. The history of *** should not exclude old sims as being now games since they are old and unsophisticated. For myself I have very strict rules. I never employ those terms but I consider all "games" as virtual reality entertainment. I exclude from the meaning of a "virtual reality simulator" all games that are axed as pure fantasy, who on purpose modify the virtual reality to make it more implausible. You know... powerups don't exist in real-life, tracks in space, cars who don't exist, etc.. To everybody his own margin of what is a sim or not. But the fact is that this is a newsgroup where a multitude of people come and give their opinion. And as a "whole", we are mostly *** racing simulation fans, and we have around the same choices as what is a sim or not. You know.. Daytona USA and Grand Prix Legends for most of us are an arcade game and a racing simulator, but it's when we go towards the middle that people do not agree. -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Sure but what brought that up? BEOROCKET Racing: www.beorocket.co.yu

Quoted text (17 lines)

> I see some people say "Game X is not a sim because of Y observation". > It reminds me of the old "True 3D" go around with Doom, Quake, Duke3d, etc. > To me, everything from pole position to the full cab professional simulators > are all sims. What's different is the quality of the simulation. > Dirt Track Racing for example is a simulation of Dirt Track Racing on the PC. > If you want to say it's not a very good simulation, fine. But to say it's not > a simulation of Dirt Track Racing I think is kind of silly. Could it be > better? Yes. Show me any software that could *not* be better. > Maybe GPL isn't a sim because the road surface is always perfectly smooth. No > cracks or rough patches in the road surfaces. The only time your suspension > moves is from cornering or accelerating/decelerating. > glen

True... I agree with the quality of the sim...but not the fact that everything is a sim. Need For Speed is kinda on the border - the cars are realistic and the physics are OK, but flawed - in NFS3, you almost NEVER need the brakes. It goes down from there - stuff like Jeff Gordon XS - a sim of what??? I think that DTR is an awesome sim/game/whatever!!! Who cares if it isn't 110% realistic, on my LAN , it RULES!!!! You could call it the current pinnacle of sims - most PCs have hard enough time with GPL as it is. Modelling that much of the track would kill even the fastest PCs. -- Kirk Lane ICQ: 28171652 BRT #187 "It goes down the same as a thousand before No one's gettin' smarter, no one's learnin the score The never ending spree of death and *** and hate Is gonna tie your own rope" -'Come Out And Play', The Offspring

>To me, everything from pole position to the full cab professional simulators >are all sims. What's different is the quality of the simulation. You're correct. Everything is a simulation. Take Super Mario Brothers for instance. There's a fine simulation of me being an Italian plumber who jumps and hits his head on the ceiling to flip over turtles and crabs on the floor above. If I don't jump up and knock them into the water in time, there is a simulation of a turtle wearing underwear coming out of his shell to flip it back over before climbing inside. The jumping physics are also excellent, so you can't use that argument against it. The Brothers also look a little bit alike, despite being quite different, much like many real life brothers. Yes indeed, Super Mario Brothers is a fine, fine sim. Tim

It simulates something that is impossible in real-life. Have you ever seen two brother plumbers jumping over green tubes and squishing toads ? And for me it eliminates the term "sim" as it doesn't simulates something that is real. -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

You obviously haven't seen my ba***t! :) Later, John

Did you ever try driving Mosport, i believe the suspension moves quit a lot here. Besides when on earth in racing aren't you braking or accelerating/decelerating, the point of the game/sim(as you please) is not to take the family out of a nice drive around monza. When your not acc,dec or braking in gpl you are doing something wrong. To me a sim is a sim as soon as i can aply the physics from real life driving to my driving in a computer simulated situation and this wil result in better laptimes etc. An arcade is a game where you just ignore real life physics and can go around a 90 degree corner full throtle. Ofcourse a trhu to life sim is not possible at this time with current technologie since the loose of traction of wheels when braking still has to be judges by ear since you don't feel your car orking, still its the best we have now and it suits me fine until someone else finds a better affordable way to solve this prob. Then there is also the 2d/3d vieuwing, always looking forward while in a car you are able (and you will) look side ways towards the apex even if your still driving forward. IN sims you always loo where the nose is pointing, well believe me i never saw a driver aproaching a thight hairpin looking straight forward until the point he turns in still until v.r. glasses with head tracking kicks in(and i hope in the very near future) there is no solution to this. Still i'm able to aply my knowledge of real race driving to the sim and be able to drive better no matter how much things there are left to improve to get an even better experience of real life driving. Besides i think that ther are only sims or arcade racers, there are many grays (games with sim qualities, sims with game qualities etc.). For example take gran turismo. It's a game but it's also a sim. Her for example the cars do behave towards the patches in the road and driving the right lines on the circuits gives me better lap times. Still the physics are somehow a bit adapted it's a lot easier to drive then for example gpl still they both are able to give me a feeling tat i'm driving a real (race)car. To me they are both sims and they both have there own kwalities. Sega rally is an arcade racer, no matter how well you know racing car physics it won't help your lap times. But in the end it's just a matter of definition and for most of us in this newsgroup the def. is fairly close the same. You could discuss hours about this but in the end you secretly already knew what most of us ment when talking about sims. Words doesn't matter meaning does. just my 2c Andre Hanegraaf Amsterdam

In this NG we say a 'game' is either a sim or arcade racer. For me the difference lies in the intension of the creators. If they intended the game to be as realistic as possible to drive, then it's a sim. If they just wanted to make a fun game, it's an arcade racer. So the emphasis of the creators on the actual driving in the 'game' decides wether it's a sim or not. Two examples: GPL is definatly a sim, because papy's main goal was to make the most realistic sim ever made. NFS3 is definatly NOT a sim, because the emphasis clearly lies on the graphics and the police action, while the actual driving is in fact worse than earlier versions. In my opinion a game with similar physics to NFS3 could be sim, if the creators intended it to be. The difference is that that game would be a bad sim, while NFS3 is a good arcade racer. (To bad for EA I don't like arcade racers.) So if we take an old sim with physics inferior to NFS3 it will always remain a sim, because at the time of creation the creators made it as realistic as possible for them. // Johan

>It simulates something that is impossible in real-life. Have you ever seen >two brother plumbers jumping over green tubes and squishing toads ? And >for me it eliminates the term "sim" as it doesn't simulates something that >is real. Good argument. I never dreamed that someone would be astute enough to disprove my post about flipping underwear equipped turtles using only ones head. I now see the error of my ways, and Mario Brothers is merely a game. NFL Blitz... Now THERES a simulation! Tim

Quoted text (10 lines)

>> I see some people say "Game X is not a sim because of Y observation". >> It reminds me of the old "True 3D" go around with Doom, Quake, Duke3d, >etc. >> To me, everything from pole position to the full cab professional >simulators >> are all sims. What's different is the quality of the simulation. >For me, a SIM is in the physics.... Pole Position was an arcade GAME

because

Quoted text (14 lines)

>it was just stand on the gas and turn the wheel and every now and then >consider that brake thingy.... GPL is a SIM because the car responds (as >accurately as the programming can duplicate) as a real 1300lb, 400hp car >would. Traction, speed, weight shift, engine rpm, etc. are all taken into >account to make the car react. Some SIMs do this better than others, but if >accurate physics is the focus, I'm there. The NASCAR parade are all SIM's >for the same reason, the physics are at least attempted to be modeled >accurately. Indy500 is a SIM, Hard Drivin' (anybody else used to get drunk >off their ***and spend a couple hours seeing who could DWI better? :o) is >a SIM. A GAME on the other hand does not put the main focus on the accuracy >of the physics and response of the vehicle. Some of them do pay at least >some attention to the details but the overall "point" is not in how the >vehicle reacts to input. Interstate76 is a good example. It's an enjoyable >GAME and made better because of the added detail in the way the car

responds >to driver control and damage, but it is not a SIM. Need For Speed is a GAME. >Big Red Racing is a uh, it's a, ummm - just what the hell is it anyway? Big Red Racing is great. Sjoerd

Quoted text (14 lines)

>In this NG we say a 'game' is either a sim or arcade racer. For me the >difference lies in the intension of the creators. If they intended the >game to be as realistic as possible to drive, then it's a sim. If they >just wanted to make a fun game, it's an arcade racer. So the emphasis of >the creators on the actual driving in the 'game' decides wether it's a >sim or not. >Two examples: >GPL is definatly a sim, because papy's main goal was to make the most >realistic sim ever made. >NFS3 is definatly NOT a sim, because the emphasis clearly lies on the >graphics and the police action, while the actual driving is in fact >worse than earlier versions.

And I thought the graphics in N3 were poor... Just a simple update of N2.

As a matter of fact...yes, yes I have.

The only problem with this is that with Nascar Revolution, the developers claimed it was a sim and was realistically modeled, yet I think a couple people don't consider it a simulation because of the physics. J Black

Yeah, I messed with the demo for quite a while and have to admit, I couldn't help but enjoy it. It's just 'strange' <G> I got a kick out of taking the air boat cross-country and getting lost out in the hills somewhere.....