Getting tired of the GPL purists

This is probably gonna generate a lot of heat but that's what newsgroups are for. First of all I love GPL but am sick of its disciples in this newsgroup shooting down every suggestion or complaint about this sim. For example - There's no speedometer in the***pit view as there shouldn't be because it wasn't there, but there should be a toggle for mph to be overlayed ala the arcade view. Now I'm sure the purists will flame that it wasn't there in real life - well guess what? In real life you weren't looking at a 19" 2 dimensional computer monitor, were you? A speedometer will help you judge you speed and compensate for the lack of sensation and stereoscopic vision. I remember a post about how you could download a patch to slow down the quick glance feature to better simulate the speed of the driver's head as he looked left or right - Jesus ***ing christ!! There should be a patch to speed it up to compensate for the lack of peripheral vision. If you race in the arcade view you might as well be labeled a heretic and banned from any online racing, but hey let's face it, in real life you can feel the car shifting it's center of gravity and the back end losing grip. Racing in the arcade view allows you to see what you can't feel. For me racing in the***pit view is more fun but I'm not as fast. Now, I think that the more you practice you can compensate and become faster in the ***pit view, but what your really doing is learning how to figure out the sim and not drive better. In reality,when your in a corner and the back end starts to come out do you really realize that because what you see or what you feel? Think about it. Let's hear some feedback. Thanks JH

> A speedometer will help you judge > you speed and compensate for the lack of sensation and stereoscopic vision. It wouldn't bother me if there was an option, but I'd try not to use it. In N2, I was constantly watching the speed readout in turns, and relied on it heavily to turn a good lap. GPL is a lot more fun for me since I'm driving by the virual seat of my pants, instead of by the numbers. Really? Never heard of it and would like to try it, though I'd rather speed it up too. Can the angle that the view turns be adjusted? In a sim, it's definitely what you see, with a good bit of what you hear mixed in. I use the in-car view, though, because it's a driving sim and not a flying sim (flying behind the car). -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

I agree (and have said since Day 1--that is GPL Day 1) that OPTIONAL read-outs of various sorts would enhance the sim. and people's ability to learn it...with the goal of eventually not needing such aids. A 2D monitor image and nicely placed stereo sound can go a long way, but it is a long, long way from reality. FFB helps a tremendous amount to fill in the "gaps" that are left with only the 2D visuals and 2D sound. Someone suggested a little bar graph affair that could show lateral force and slip angle, yaw angle, etc.--it could be placed in the letterbox emptiness and...get this...YOU CAN TURN IT OFF IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT!!! I am a GPL fan beyond a doubt. It is by far the superior driving/racing sim. available. It has one fatal flaw in my books--the lack of pitting, which renders one out of a race even for a very minor mechanical or driving problem that would have been corrected in the pits in '67. I could care less about animated pit crew, etc...just have a time "penalty" that you sit in your stall before you can go on either fully or partially repaired. I really don't think it would be that difficult to program compared to the rest of what's in the game. Anyway, back to your point, I think anything that can provide greater accessibility to a very hard product to master (and a masterpiece) only benefits all of us--even the purists--as the only way we'll see another GPL is if someone can figure out how to blend *** sim. qualities and popularity (not an easy match). We'll see if another master can pull it off with GP3. Marc.

[snip] [snipped again] Yes, but it's seems to me (as has been written by many others before me) that to willingly go online and race others in a driving view where you don't have mirrors is, at best, somewhat cold-hearted. DK

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> > A speedometer will help you judge > > you speed and compensate for the lack of sensation and stereoscopic vision. > It wouldn't bother me if there was an option, but > I'd try not to use it. In N2, I was constantly > watching the speed readout in turns, and relied > on it heavily to turn a good lap. GPL is a lot > more fun for me since I'm driving by the virual > seat of my pants, instead of by the numbers.

I also did the same thing. I knew I could just shut it down but it became such a needed visual effect that when I didn't have it there, I always over drove the car. That's one *big* reason why it's best not to have it in the first place. If you use it, odds are you'll never turn it off. As far as the G-Forces, I think there's an application for the replays that gives you that info, I think. Probably the biggest reason why I wouldn't want it there is because I want to drive a SIM. Not an arcadish Sim. Sounds like the original poster wanted a Sim that had body movements of GPL but wanted a NFS type of game. -- ========================================= Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing? ========================================= http://members.xoom.com/BarlowRacing/ Racing online with the help of...... Race Communications Association Holodyne Engineering Mystic Music (have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here)

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> ----- Original Message ----- > Newsgroups: rec.autos.simulators > Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 4:05 PM > Subject: Re: Getting tired of the GPL purists > > Probably the biggest reason why I wouldn't want it there is because I > > want to drive a SIM. Not an arcadish Sim. Sounds like the original > > poster wanted a Sim that had body movements of GPL but wanted a NFS type > > of game. > That's not want I wanted at all. I'm 99% happy with GPL. I'm just sick of > the purists who think that anything that is not 100% original to the 1967 > season is blasphemy. I'm just looking for more "realsim compensation" - > aids that will compensate for the fact that I'm driving a computer. > JH

The only odd-on that I would like is a track editor to take care of some of the bugs. Other then that, I have no problems with the way GPL is setup. As far as reality/purists, The only thing that bugs me is when they say they don't like the ovals because F1 didn't race on these (N3) ovals in 67. If you look at the NASCAR groups, you'll find the exact same thing. People that swear that if the Sim isn't exactly like the real thing then it's no good. Some are complaining that the GPL tracks should not be used in N3 because those tracks don't exist in the same configuration anymore. I'd assume that if there was a following for Need for Speed, there would be the exact same thing there too. Even most of the flight sim players are the same way.. if it's not original, it's no good. No matter what it is, Sim, Types of racing, food preparation even... If it's not original, it's no good. So, If you don't agree with something, state your mind. *BUT* be very careful how you do that. -- ========================================= Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing? ========================================= http://members.xoom.com/BarlowRacing/ Racing online with the help of...... Race Communications Association Holodyne Engineering Mystic Music (have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here)

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> <Snipped> > If you race in the arcade view you might as well be labeled a heretic and > banned from any online racing, but hey let's face it, in real life you can > feel the car shifting it's center of gravity and the back end losing grip. > Racing in the arcade view allows you to see what you can't feel. For me > racing in the***pit view is more fun but I'm not as fast. Now, I think > that the more you practice you can compensate and become faster in the >***pit view, but what your really doing is learning how to figure out the > sim and not drive better. In reality,when your in a corner and the back end > starts to come out do you really realize that because what you see or what > you feel? Think about it.

Having thought about it, I have to disagree. Since it seems to be potentially as fast to drive from the***pit (sim) view as it is from the chase (arcade) view, you are learning to master GPL from either view. Call me a purist but the real difference is whether you relate to the simulated driving experience as a driver or a game player. More important than the apparent advantage of not being distracted from the guy behind is missing the challenge of driving well while seeing an aggressive competitor in your mirrors from the***pit view...a significant part of the real racing experience which is missing from the chase view. Marty

Don't forget that one of the big goals of Matt Sentell's during his design phase was to replicate as closely as possible the racing in that era, within the confines of your PC and its crude display system. Actually I fully agree with most, but not all, of the design decisions. Some folks wanted telemetry as well - clearly that wasn't part of racing in the 60's but to display some simple graphs on the screen would have been "trivial", but there was no way telemetry was going to feature in GPL :-) Mike.

Hi Marc, I'm sure you'll appreciate that very few faults were fixed during a race in the 60's, and to implement an entire pitting facility for the player and AI would have been nice, BUT with very little cost benefit, IMO. I was on the test team as you may recall, and I know just how much pressure the developers were under to ship GPL with its current feature-set, never mind considering adding a whole load more stuff. Like all "wants", it's a kind of "wait for the next version" situation. Whatever that will be, I don't know - NASCAR I presume. Mike.

For me GPL is the only sim where I go faster with the***pit view, because all the feedback is better in the***pit view (locking tyres etc.), even the FF, IIRC. I also don't like the chase view in GPL because the car seems to be floating on the track. For me it's only useful for the first laps on a new track, because I can see better which line I have to go. Well, I'm sucking in GPL anyway... CU Zolli

Perhaps there should be mirrors in the arcade view as well - I mean why bother to have the arcade view at all if it's half-assed?? JH

----- Original Message ----- Newsgroups: rec.autos.simulators Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 4:05 PM Subject: Re: Getting tired of the GPL purists > Probably the biggest reason why I wouldn't want it there is because I > want to drive a SIM. Not an arcadish Sim. Sounds like the original > poster wanted a Sim that had body movements of GPL but wanted a NFS type > of game. That's not want I wanted at all. I'm 99% happy with GPL. I'm just sick of the purists who think that anything that is not 100% original to the 1967 season is blasphemy. I'm just looking for more "realsim compensation" - aids that will compensate for the fact that I'm driving a computer. JH

The best part about GPL is that it 'simulates' what you can feel because the visual motion is a bit exagerated, and the hints it provides such as steering wheel shake, and the ability to see the drift angle. I often seem to drive with about a 30 degree drift angle, which I believe is way more than normal, but by using such an exaggerated drift angle, you can see the effect of every weight shift and change in throttle position or turn in. So by doing this it isn't being pure (like ICR2 where you'd have little drift until you lost the back end and went off.), but is providing the experience.

That would absolutely GREAT to have ,in order to compensate for the lack of Field-of-View and g-forces in relation to the real thing. (and not for "arcade" reasons,as suggested by somebody else in this thread) The Force-feedback chair that is on the way might provide some degree of G-force sensory input to the body,but there is still the lack a full understanding of the orientation of the car and which way it is moving in relation to its surroundings due to the limited field-of-view. One of the few ways this could be provided is by displaying that that in analog form on the edge of the screen. I am sure that this would have a HUGE impact on situation awareness (which you have you have in real-life cars, but very little in pc simulations.) -- Robert S?derberg If replying by mail,remove the word INGENSPAM from the adress.

Well, pitting was an essential part of F1 in 1967... at least as essential as many other features and details included in GPL. Weather was also an essential feature that got dropped. It's fine if there isn't the time or the skill or the money to do it, but don't claim it wouldn't greatly enhance the sim. Quitting a full race 90% of the way through when you are in the lead because you grazed an armco just slightly is disgusting when you can make it back to your pit stall and sit there for 30 seconds while an invisible pit crew gives you a new wheel and tire and a little count down timer ticks away. You drove away as you would have in the real race (back at 100% mobility), but with a minor time penalty. I don't think the relative effort to program this would have been too great. It is certainly in another universe with weather, which would be phenomenally complex to add and resource intensive to run. Had GPL been more popular, it could have been patched in. As it stands, I am glad some good souls took the time and effort to include great FFB. Marc.

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> > I am a GPL fan beyond a doubt. It is by far the superior driving/racing > > sim. available. It has one fatal flaw in my books--the lack of pitting, > > which renders one out of a race even for a very minor mechanical or > driving > > problem that would have been corrected in the pits in '67. I could care > > less about animated pit crew, etc...just have a time "penalty" that you > sit > > in your stall before you can go on either fully or partially repaired.

I > > really don't think it would be that difficult to program compared to the > > rest of what's in the game. > Hi Marc, > I'm sure you'll appreciate that very few faults were fixed during a race in > the 60's, and to implement an entire pitting facility for the player and AI > would have been nice, BUT with very little cost benefit, IMO. I was on the

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> test team as you may recall, and I know just how much pressure the > developers were under to ship GPL with its current feature-set, never mind > considering adding a whole load more stuff. Like all "wants", it's a kind > of "wait for the next version" situation. Whatever that will be, I don't > know - NASCAR I presume. > Mike.

Agree with everything in this post,as you really need to get every compensation you can for the limitations imposed on sims by current PC platforms.(except for reduced physical model !!!!!!!!) Would you remember any details at all about that posting you mentioned above? I'm interested in any info at all regarding how the game engine manipulates the cameras. Regards. -- Robert S?derberg If replying by mail,remove the word INGENSPAM from the adress.

Who said that and where Mike ? I really want to flame somebody, please tell me 8) -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

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>> A speedometer will help you judge >> you speed and compensate for the lack of sensation and stereoscopic vision. >It wouldn't bother me if there was an option, but >I'd try not to use it. In N2, I was constantly >watching the speed readout in turns, and relied >on it heavily to turn a good lap. GPL is a lot >more fun for me since I'm driving by the virual >seat of my pants, instead of by the numbers.

Yeah, I used the speedo in N2(and ICR,etc) to judge the turns. It took me a LONG time to learn to drive in GPL without it, and I'm sure that's why I'm not more consistent... With a 15" monitor and some graphics turned down/off, it's not always easy to judge youre speed based on what you SEE... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

<snip> I suggest you go look at comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action if you cannot live with us, the *** simracers that are on our own newsgroup made for us, rec.autos.simulators. We have been here for years, it is our home and we have some very *** thoughts. You don't like them? It's possible. But don't come here and say what we should say or not say. Realism is what we want. The best racing simulator will be the one we compare to everything else, higher or lower. Unfortunately, nothing went higher yet, all under they went. Not to say there will never be a higher one, but when it will then we will move on and consider it as the Mecca of simracing. -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Not 100% correct, Mike. Indeed, there were some significant results over the years (pre 1970s) that were directly arttributable to the driver pitting, whether for a change of tyre, a splash of fuel or lubricant or even a twist of a spanner on a suspension component. When GPL was first mooted the one omission that disappointed me more than save-game, or weather conditions, was the lack of pitting. Over the length of a full-on GP distance, this would have been a brilliant inclusion for those times when we brush a hedgerow or scrape a bridge wall, resulting in a deflating tyre or a bent tie-rod, for example. To have had the ability to make a pit stop and then resume the chase would have added tons of atmosphere to an already brilliant simulation. -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- -----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ==---------- http://www.newsfeeds.com The Largest Usenet Servers in the World! ------== Over 73,000 Newsgroups - Including Dedicated Binaries Servers ==-----

After due consideration my feedback is that you need to pop a Prozac or two before posting in the future. That way we don't get a tirade, and hopefully a touch less swearing too. The point that you are discussing revolves around two issues - suspension of disbelief on one hand, and fairness on the other. Some people want a totally immersive experience, to recreate the moments of Clark, Hill, Gurney and forget the fact they're looking at looking at a 19" 2 dimensional computer monitor. Others want lots of add-ons which weren't available in real life to enhance their sim experience, but then both parties want to race each other online, and while the latter is happy to race anything, the former can lose the enjoyment because the experience is gone if you're supposedly engaging in a fair and equal race but one person is floating fifty feet above the car in arcade view, speedo, better visibility etc etc. I certainly can't see it as a problem though, you just find people for whom this is not a problem and race them. As for people disagreeing with suggestions, welcome to Usenet. As to the specific suggestion of arcade view, when in arcade view you watch a small car move relative to the road which is difficult to intepret and react to. In-car large areas move relative to each other, and in a manner any driver understands and knows how to interpret. I find any racing game far easier from in-car view, but YMMV. No, it's exactly the opposite. When you drive from arcade view you are re-learning to drive the car from a totally unnatural position. From the in-car you use the same visual cues that are used in a real car. In _neither_ case do you have the physical seat-of-the-pants indicators available in real-life, but the in-car view is for sure closest to reality. Cheers! John

And what about the timing system ? I know it is realistically implemented, the way you see your lap time a lap later ... But wouldn't be nice if we saw some split time during our laps. To see directly where we are losing time, without using external utilities. Being able to made direct changes to our setups And what are the times of other competitors. I mean If I was racing for a last round in the championship I would like to how my direct competitor is doing in the race... How many cars are between us ? At the moment it's guessing time and the disappoint ment can be great after the race... I think this might help a lot of people increasing their performance in GPL, not only a speedometer Jimmy

Learn to read the Tach. The Tach is just as good as a Speedo. If real racers do it, it must work. ;)

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> > Yeah, I used the speedo in N2(and ICR,etc) to judge the turns. It took me a > > LONG time to learn to drive in GPL without it, and I'm sure that's why I'm not > > more consistent... With a 15" monitor and some graphics turned down/off, it's > > not always easy to judge youre speed based on what you SEE... > Learn to read the Tach. The Tach is just as good as a Speedo. If real > racers do it, it must work. ;)

Yeah, I try to tell people who complain about the missing speedo in GPL that what matters in not how fast you drive in a corner, but what gear and revs you have in the corner. -- Olav K. Malmin remove spam when replying

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> And what about the timing system ? I know it is realistically implemented, > the way you see > your lap time a lap later ... > But wouldn't be nice if we saw some split time during our laps. To see > directly where > we are losing time, without using external utilities. Being able to made > direct changes to > our setups > And what are the times of other competitors. I mean If I was racing for a > last round in the championship > I would like to how my direct competitor is doing in the race... How many > cars are between us ? > At the moment it's guessing time and the disappoint ment can be great after > the race... > I think this might help a lot of people increasing their performance in GPL, > not only a speedometer > Jimmy

There's something I'd like to see. Not necessarily what you are asking but close. I'd like to have the ability to easily change what's displayed on the pit board for a race. 1. My lap times.. During Practice/Qualifying is nice, but during a race would be beneficial *to me* 2. If I'm leading, I'd like to know who I'm about to lap. 3. During Practice, I'd like to see not only my lap time, but also the + or - from my previous lap. There are other ideas that I've had but can't remember them right off hand. I would imagine that there could be a utility where I can choose what I want displayed on the pit board for each Race. Load up the application, choose what I want via radio buttons, close the application, start GPL. You get the idea. -- ========================================= Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing? ========================================= http://members.xoom.com/BarlowRacing/ Racing online with the help of...... Race Communications Association Holodyne Engineering Mystic Music (have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here)

<snip> % If you race in the arcade view you might as well be labeled a heretic and % banned from any online racing, but hey let's face it, in real life you can % feel the car shifting it's center of gravity and the back end losing grip. % Racing in the arcade view allows you to see what you can't feel. For me % racing in the***pit view is more fun but I'm not as fast. Now, I think % that the more you practice you can compensate and become faster in the %***pit view, but what your really doing is learning how to figure out the % sim and not drive better. In reality,when your in a corner and the back end % starts to come out do you really realize that because what you see or what % you feel? Think about it. Yes, that is what is happening, one is learning to drive the sim. The same thing happens in real life, the more time one spends in the***pit (as opposed attending driver's meetings and reading driving manuals), the more one learns to drive the race car. There are subtle clues from the***pit view that will tell one the shape of the car. Spending time in the***pit allows one to learn how to interpret these clues and how to react to them. Since it is a sim, one must compensate and learn to pickup on the subtle clues that Papyrus provided us to learn to drive quick and consistent. You also mentioned a speedometer, well, one can learn to judge the speed by paying attention to the revs (just like a real race car driver did in those days). Yeh, maybe Papyrus would have made the game more accessable to those that need some of the crutches you mention. However, they didn't provide them and we either learn to adapt without them or moan their abscence. I get more pleasure learning to adapt without them, while others seem to enjoy moaning about the shortcomings of a fine racing simulation of the 1967 F1 season. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

: Yeah, I try to tell people who complain about the missing speedo in GPL that : what matters in not how fast you drive in a corner, but what gear and revs : you have in the corner. Surely not - I mean you don't spin because the engine revs are too high - you spin because your speed is too high. Sure, it can be affected if you're braking, accelerating or whatever - but the primary cause is surely excess speed? -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

Well stated Bruce...same point, but more articulate. Perhaps I should refrain from replying to r.a.s. posts at the end of long days 5 minutes before going to sleep for the night :). For me it is the immersion quality--I wouldn't feel like I was being unfairly cheated out of something for the sake of a programming shortcut. It is SO much effort (at least for me) to drive competitively in GPL, and to be able to do it consistently over the length of a race requires even more effort. To get to the point where you only make small mistakes instead of the big dunkers is such an investment of time and effort that when I make a tiny little mistake in a race, I don't appreciate having my race ended as a result if it is unlikely that that would be the result in real life. And let's not forget that GPL's damage model is far from perfect...it is good, but there are times when it inflicts more or less damage than would be warranted. It may take a gargantuan effort to improve it further, but that's another reason to have minor damage repairable in the pits. It eases the pain of a potential modelling flaw from another part of the sim. Marc. > Not 100% correct, Mike. > Indeed, there were some significant results over the years (pre 1970s) that > were directly arttributable to the driver pitting, whether for a change of > tyre, a splash of fuel or lubricant or even a twist of a spanner on a > suspension component. > When GPL was first mooted the one omission that disappointed me more than > save-game, or weather conditions, was the lack of pitting. Over the length > of a full-on GP distance, this would have been a brilliant inclusion for > those times when we brush a hedgerow or scrape a bridge wall, resulting in a

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> deflating tyre or a bent tie-rod, for example. > To have had the ability to make a pit stop and then resume the chase would > have added tons of atmosphere to an already brilliant simulation. > -- > Regards, > Bruce Kennewell, > Canberra, Australia. > --------------------------- > > I'm sure you'll appreciate that very few faults were fixed during a race > in > > the 60's, > -----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News

==---------- > http://www.newsfeeds.com The Largest Usenet Servers in the World! > ------== Over 73,000 Newsgroups - Including Dedicated Binaries Servers ==-----

Give it a rest and read the original post. If you really have to endlessly repeat this rant then do it less mindlessly. Do it to someone who deserves it. This poster does not. Marc.

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> > Let's hear some feedback. > <snip> > I suggest you go look at comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action if you cannot live > with us, the *** simracers that are on our own newsgroup made for us, > rec.autos.simulators. > We have been here for years, it is our home and we have some very *** > thoughts. You don't like them? It's possible. But don't come here and

say > what we should say or not say. Realism is what we want. > The best racing simulator will be the one we compare to everything else, > higher or lower. Unfortunately, nothing went higher yet, all under they > went. Not to say there will never be a higher one, but when it will then we

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> will move on and consider it as the Mecca of simracing. > -- > -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

I can't wait for N4, because, of course, Papy will remove the speed display from the OPTIONS for that title, won't they. I mean, after all, the real NASCAR cars don't have a speedometer. Marc. > <snip> > % If you race in the arcade view you might as well be labeled a heretic and > % banned from any online racing, but hey let's face it, in real life you can > % feel the car shifting it's center of gravity and the back end losing grip. > % Racing in the arcade view allows you to see what you can't feel. For me > % racing in the***pit view is more fun but I'm not as fast. Now, I think > % that the more you practice you can compensate and become faster in the > %***pit view, but what your really doing is learning how to figure out the > % sim and not drive better. In reality,when your in a corner and the back end > % starts to come out do you really realize that because what you see or what

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> % you feel? Think about it. > Yes, that is what is happening, one is learning to drive the sim. The > same thing happens in real life, the more time one spends in the***pit > (as opposed attending driver's meetings and reading driving manuals), > the more one learns to drive the race car. There are subtle clues from > the***pit view that will tell one the shape of the car. Spending time > in the***pit allows one to learn how to interpret these clues and how > to react to them. Since it is a sim, one must compensate and learn to > pickup on the subtle clues that Papyrus provided us to learn to drive > quick and consistent. > You also mentioned a speedometer, well, one can learn to judge the speed > by paying attention to the revs (just like a real race car driver did in > those days). Yeh, maybe Papyrus would have made the game more > accessable to those that need some of the crutches you mention. > However, they didn't provide them and we either learn to adapt without > them or moan their abscence. I get more pleasure learning to adapt > without them, while others seem to enjoy moaning about the shortcomings > of a fine racing simulation of the 1967 F1 season. > -- > **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* > Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

>: Yeah, I try to tell people who complain about the missing speedo in GPL that >: what matters in not how fast you drive in a corner, but what gear and revs >: you have in the corner. > Surely not - I mean you don't spin because the engine revs are too >high - you spin because your speed is too high. Sure, it can be >affected if you're braking, accelerating or whatever - but the primary >cause is surely excess speed? Yes, but gear & RPM seems to be the unit of choice for racing drivers to measure speed in, even when a speedometer is available (several people I know who compete in classes requiring vehicles to be fully road equipped, (like "Road Saloons" or "Hot Hatch") actually go to the trouble of taping over the (fully funtcional) speedometers in their cars for competition or track driving. Now /why/ they do this is questionable, and I've had several plausible explanations, ranging from the fact that the calibration will be totally screwed as tyre sizes and (in some cases) gearing vary, to the suggestion that it's one less instrument to keep an eye on as the tachometer will tell you engine speed and give an indication of road speed. Nevertheless, ask people how quickly they're going through a given corner and they won't say "around 75 MPH", they'll say "about 5K RPM in third..." -- JG

Only the People at Pappy can answer this one. The general concensus amongst most drivers is that it's use is to be avoided. MS

I fail to understand how the lack of a speedo (unless we are talking about a digital readout which IMHO would be totally unsuitable for GPL anyway), is such a cause for concern. mph is only a yardstick in the same way that rpm is. If we are talking about using an analogue speedo here surely it is easy enough to figure out what speed you are doing for given revs in any gear. Ultimately, the average simmer will lap within just a couple of percent of the top dogs. Once in this zone, point of concentration should be focused on braking points turning in to the apex correctly and getting the gas down earlier in order to shave those 10ths off. I'm not sure how this could be done if I was staring at a needle! MS > >> A speedometer will help you judge > >> you speed and compensate for the lack of sensation and stereoscopic vision.

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> >It wouldn't bother me if there was an option, but > >I'd try not to use it. In N2, I was constantly > >watching the speed readout in turns, and relied > >on it heavily to turn a good lap. GPL is a lot > >more fun for me since I'm driving by the virual > >seat of my pants, instead of by the numbers. > Yeah, I used the speedo in N2(and ICR,etc) to judge the turns. It took me

a > LONG time to learn to drive in GPL without it, and I'm sure that's why I'm not > more consistent... With a 15" monitor and some graphics turned down/off, it's

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> not always easy to judge youre speed based on what you SEE... > Eldred > -- > Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 > Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc > Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats

you > with experience... > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Wrong. You spin because you have too little grip, wheelspin or too high a slip angle for any given situation . Some people can take a corner at 180 quite safely whilst others would be off at the same spot at 160 MS

It will be an option, Im 100% sure of that ;) -- -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> -- May the Downforce be with you... "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

And it would beat the heck out of Shift-R -- how realistic is that? >Quitting a full race 90% of the way through when you are in the lead because >you grazed an armco just slightly is disgusting when you can make it back to >your pit stall and sit there for 30 seconds while an invisible pit crew >gives you a new wheel and tire and a little count down timer ticks away. >You drove away as you would have in the real race (back at 100% mobility), >but with a minor time penalty. I don't think the relative effort to program >this would have been too great> >Had GPL been more popular, it could have been patched in. As it stands, I >am glad some good souls took the time and effort to include great FFB.

I drive the Arcade view in GPL (I wish there was a computer screen that gave you periphrial vision and GPL supported it!), but almost never glance at the MPH. I will maybe look down for a split second on the straightaway just to see how fast I'm going out of curiosity. Same deal for ICR2, N3, etc. But I do drive the***pit view on GP2. Dan Belcher Team Racing Unlimited http://simcrash.00game.com

:> Surely not - I mean you don't spin because the engine revs are too :> high - you spin because your speed is too high. : Wrong. You spin because you have too little grip, wheelspin or too high a : slip angle for any given situation . Some people can take a corner at 180 : quite safely whilst others would be off at the same spot at 160 Um... I think speed is the primary determining factor in the side force which the grip is trying to overcome. -- Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York www: http://manor.york.ac.uk/top.html

Lets hope so, then all the arcaders can feel justified in buying a Playstation. Steve >I can't wait for N4, because, of course, Papy will remove the speed display >from the OPTIONS for that title, won't they. I mean, after all, the real >NASCAR cars don't have a speedometer.

I have some questions: Why is it that if it's an unrealistic option, but it's included in the game (arcade view, e.g.) it's a great thing that it is included, but if it's unrealistic and not included in the game (speedometer, e.g) it's a great thing that it isn't included? Is it really realism "we" want or is it just that we see everything about the game through Papyrus colored glasses? Why aren't all "options" considered a good idea since they can all be turned on or off? > > Let's hear some feedback. > <snip> > I suggest you go look at comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action if you cannot live > with us, the *** simracers that are on our own newsgroup made for us, > rec.autos.simulators. > We have been here for years, it is our home and we have some very *** > thoughts. You don't like them? It's possible. But don't come here and say > what we should say or not say. Realism is what we want. > The best racing simulator will be the one we compare to everything else, > higher or lower. Unfortunately, nothing went higher yet, all under they > went. Not to say there will never be a higher one, but when it will then we

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> will move on and consider it as the Mecca of simracing. > -- > -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> > -- May the Downforce be with you... > "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't

realise > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

He is saying that instead of relying on an instrument reading, you can judge how fast your are going by listening to the RPM's, and knowing what gear you are in. Once you are used to it, you can know whether you are going too fast or too slow by using only your ears, and never moving your eyes from the road. It's an effective substitute for a speedometer.

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> : Yeah, I try to tell people who complain about the missing speedo in GPL that > : what matters in not how fast you drive in a corner, but what gear and revs > : you have in the corner. > Surely not - I mean you don't spin because the engine revs are too > high - you spin because your speed is too high. Sure, it can be > affected if you're braking, accelerating or whatever - but the primary > cause is surely excess speed?

-- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

However it was stated, Marc, we both feel the same when it comes to the lack of pitting. Indeed, as you correctly pointed out, collision detection is not of the highest tolerance, with situations where a wheel has been at least several inches away from another object yet a collision takes place. If ever the time comes (and, sadly, economics most likely say it won't!) that Papyrus do an update or a version 2 then the ability to pit should be high on their list of tweaks. -- Regards, Bruce Kennewell, Canberra, Australia. --------------------------- > Well stated Bruce...same point, but more articulate. Perhaps I should > refrain from replying to r.a.s. posts at the end of long days 5 minutes > before going to sleep for the night :). For me it is the immersion > quality--I wouldn't feel like I was being unfairly cheated out of something > for the sake of a programming shortcut. It is SO much effort (at least for > me) to drive competitively in GPL, and to be able to do it consistently over > the length of a race requires even more effort. To get to the point where > you only make small mistakes instead of the big dunkers is such an > investment of time and effort that when I make a tiny little mistake in a > race, I don't appreciate having my race ended as a result if it is unlikely > that that would be the result in real life. And let's not forget that GPL's > damage model is far from perfect...it is good, but there are times when it > inflicts more or less damage than would be warranted. It may take a > gargantuan effort to improve it further, but that's another reason to have > minor damage repairable in the pits. It eases the pain of a potential > modelling flaw from another part of the sim. > Marc. > > Not 100% correct, Mike. > > Indeed, there were some significant results over the years (pre 1970s) > that > > were directly arttributable to the driver pitting, whether for a change of > > tyre, a splash of fuel or lubricant or even a twist of a spanner on a > > suspension component. > > When GPL was first mooted the one omission that disappointed me more than > > save-game, or weather conditions, was the lack of pitting. Over the > length > > of a full-on GP distance, this would have been a brilliant inclusion for > > those times when we brush a hedgerow or scrape a bridge wall, resulting in > a > > deflating tyre or a bent tie-rod, for example. > > To have had the ability to make a pit stop and then resume the chase would > > have added tons of atmosphere to an already brilliant simulation. > > -- > > Regards, > > Bruce Kennewell, > > Canberra, Australia. > > --------------------------- > > > I'm sure you'll appreciate that very few faults were fixed during a race > > in > > > the 60's, > > -----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News > ==---------- > > http://www.newsfeeds.com The Largest Usenet Servers in the World! > > ------== Over 73,000 Newsgroups - Including Dedicated Binaries Servers > ==----- -----------== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ==---------- http://www.newsfeeds.com The Largest Usenet Servers in the World! ------== Over 73,000 Newsgroups - Including Dedicated Binaries Servers ==-----

> >Let's hear some feedback. > After due consideration my feedback is that you need to pop a Prozac > or two before posting in the future. That way we don't get a tirade, > and hopefully a touch less swearing too. It seems that it is you who are the one who is putting out the tirade... Please specify what of the wished-for "add-on"-features that are not available in real life. G-forces? Available. (body sensations) Car alignment? Available (visual input) Car body movement in relation to the surroundings? Available (visual input) If it is not possible to provde the in the same form on home PC as which they are available in real life you have to find other ways to provide them. For the G-forces ,you can add a FF chair and wheel to get some indication,but that is not nearly enough. The simplest way to add info about car alignment and car movement (save for building an entire moving***pit platform at home) is by adding small analog graphs on the sides of the screen,which I am sure would add a lot to the sim.Then people can scream "telemetry!!!" as much as they want,but it would still not add any info that wasn't available to the drivers in real life in 1967. I find it a problem to think of a sim with a 90 deg FOV as a "realistic" experience.Realistic physics model,yes, but realistic and comparable experience? Pleeeeease. Then it is a different issue that it happens to be the best and most rewarding sim on the market. In the arcade view , you view a larger part of the surroundings and how they move relative to the car, and thus you have greater situational awareness All drivers surely understand the type of input from the***pit view, but they usually drive with a 200 deg FOV, not with a crippled 90-100 deg FOV, and they can also turn their heads in an easy way. Not really. The arcade view compensate the lack of info about what's going on with other kinds of info (not more),while the***pit view is so limited in comparison to the real thing that you still have to learn in another kind of way than you would in a real race car (apart from being "a bit" more careful in real life,of course...) Next time you are driving your real car, try putting a paper cone in front of your face that limits your vision to 45-90 deg , and then tell me you don't have to learn to handle you car in a new way. (and how much you enjoy it....). Maybe you should read his post again...it was not at all about adding arcade help crutches to the sim,(as he confirmed in a subsequent post) but rather about how to compensate for the lack the lack of information imposed by the PC platform. It seems to me like those people here who are most dogmatically fighting against any changes of GPL , under the false name of "realism", are doing just that... mindlessly fihgting against changes. They have become so fixated and infatuated with GPL in its current form , that is a 90 deg FOV on an 17' monitor and an optional FF wheel, that they think THAT is the most realistic experience possible.... It's a wonder they even are using FF wheels, as FF wasn't working straight out of the box AFAIK when GPL was released....and thus can be percieved as a "change" to the original configuration, and thus an "arcade" Feature.The real tough guys shouldn't need no stinkin' arcade FF, but should rather be able to infer the movements of the car by the "subtle cues" on the screen that Papyrus had put for us there....... If GPL would have been released before PC steering wheels where available, I'm sure there would have been those who would have ***ing about the use of them .... the real cars had steering wheels , but GPL would then have "been designed for use with a joystick" and adding a wheel would have gone outside the original design specification/configuration.. ......and the cry would have rose........"ARCADE !!!" If there is going to be a mature discussion about what enhances realism, then people would better start to think hard about features they criticize beforehand, and to analyze what underlying information bits those features represent.The specific feature might have been there in real life, but the underlying info it represents might be there, and thus you should find a way of representing that info in the sim, either by the proposed feature or in some other way. Take any bit of info you want as example..G-force or any other. In real life you feel the G-forces with your body, not just with your hands. The best way to add his this is with a FF chair I believe,but there are aolso other ways, such as putting 2 small arrows in corner , indicating directional and lateral G-forces.Sure, that graph wasn't there in real life, but the G-force was there, and it is a good way of representing it. Also, for anybodys information, personally I would NEVER drive GPL in anything else but the***pit view,except for possibly learning an new track the first 10 laps, because you get info you would get through the side windows of a real car in that view. ..it is only that I don't think a 17" monitor , an FF wheel and GPL straight-out-of-the-box is the ultimate height realism that can be achieved on a computer sim, Just take a trip in any military or commercial REAL flight simulator, and you'll see what I mean (In Germany you can buy time in a civil simulator atf Frankfurt Airport,and in the US they have FA-18 simulators aboard the carrier they have turned in a aerospace museum) -- Robert S?derberg If replying by mail,remove the word INGENSPAM from the adress.

Well,maybe not EVERYTHING, upon further thought. I still race only in the***pit view,but I can understand the reasons for wanting to race in the "arcade" view, due to the limitations of the***pit view. -- Robert S?derberg If replying by mail,remove the word INGENSPAM from the adress.

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>: Yeah, I try to tell people who complain about the missing speedo in GPL that >: what matters in not how fast you drive in a corner, but what gear and revs >: you have in the corner. > Surely not - I mean you don't spin because the engine revs are too >high - you spin because your speed is too high. Sure, it can be >affected if you're braking, accelerating or whatever - but the primary >cause is surely excess speed?

I believe they are one and the same. If I'm in the correct gear and my revs are right then I know that I am at the ideal speed for that corner. In fact, after a while you shouldn't even need to check the rev counter. I've been driving GPL for so many hours now that the sound of the engine is enough to tell me whether I am going at the ideal speed. This means that I don't even have to look at the rev counter and anything that allows me to keep my eyes on the road and not elsewhere has got to be useful. -- Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington) No person's opinions can be said to be more correct than another's, because each is the sole judge of his or her own experience.

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>> Yeah, I used the speedo in N2(and ICR,etc) to judge the turns. It took me >a >> LONG time to learn to drive in GPL without it, and I'm sure that's why I'm >not >> more consistent... With a 15" monitor and some graphics turned down/off, >it's >> not always easy to judge youre speed based on what you SEE... >Learn to read the Tach. The Tach is just as good as a Speedo. If real >racers do it, it must work. ;)

Which isn't described in the manual with any degree of detail... Unless I download a new dash, I really don't know what values are where on the tach. Because of this, I just end up going by the sound of the engine, which of course varies by what gear you're in... Eldred. Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

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>I fail to understand how the lack of a speedo (unless we are talking about a >digital readout which IMHO would be totally unsuitable for GPL anyway), is >such a cause for concern. mph is only a yardstick in the same way that rpm >is. If we are talking about using an analogue speedo here surely it is easy >enough to figure out what speed you are doing for given revs in any gear. >Ultimately, the average simmer will lap within just a couple of percent of >the top dogs. Once in this zone, point of concentration should be focused on >braking points turning in to the apex correctly and getting the gas down >earlier in order to shave those 10ths off. I'm not sure how this could be >done if I was staring at a needle!

Not *staring* at it, glancing at it. In ICR/NCR, I could brake until I was at 70MPH(for example), then execute the turn at a speed that I knew would keep me on the track. As for knowing what speed you're doing - I don't see how, without a gauge. Someone here once asked me what speed I was achieving through Masta at Spa. I didn't know. I had to look at a replay, and read the speed readout on the replay screen. In actuality, I really don't know how fast I'm going in ANY corner. It's just what 'feels' right and controllable. It's only after I look at my replay and someone else's that I realize I'm 5-10mph slower at Parabolica, for example. Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

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>> : Yeah, I try to tell people who complain about the missing speedo in GPL >> that >> : what matters in not how fast you drive in a corner, but what gear and revs >> : you have in the corner. >> Surely not - I mean you don't spin because the engine revs are too >> high - you spin because your speed is too high. Sure, it can be >> affected if you're braking, accelerating or whatever - but the primary >> cause is surely excess speed? > I believe they are one and the same. If I'm in the correct gear and my > revs are right then I know that I am at the ideal speed for that corner. > In fact, after a while you shouldn't even need to check the rev counter. > I've been driving GPL for so many hours now that the sound of the engine > is enough to tell me whether I am going at the ideal speed. This means > that I don't even have to look at the rev counter and anything that > allows me to keep my eyes on the road and not elsewhere has got to be > useful.

You're absolutly right on this matter. Racing is like communication. If You don't listen, see or feel well then You don't race well.

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>>I fail to understand how the lack of a speedo (unless we are talking about a >>digital readout which IMHO would be totally unsuitable for GPL anyway), is >>such a cause for concern. mph is only a yardstick in the same way that rpm >>is. If we are talking about using an analogue speedo here surely it is easy >>enough to figure out what speed you are doing for given revs in any gear. >>Ultimately, the average simmer will lap within just a couple of percent of >>the top dogs. Once in this zone, point of concentration should be focused on >>braking points turning in to the apex correctly and getting the gas down >>earlier in order to shave those 10ths off. I'm not sure how this could be >>done if I was staring at a needle! >Not *staring* at it, glancing at it. In ICR/NCR, I could brake until I was at >70MPH(for example), then execute the turn at a speed that I knew would keep me >on the track. As for knowing what speed you're doing - I don't see how, >without a gauge. Someone here once asked me what speed I was achieving through >Masta at Spa. I didn't know. I had to look at a replay, and read the speed >readout on the replay screen. In actuality, I really don't know how fast I'm >going in ANY corner. It's just what 'feels' right and controllable. It's only >after I look at my replay and someone else's that I realize I'm 5-10mph slower >at Parabolica, for example.

And that's the whole crux of it Eldred. Knowing what speed you are doing at any particular point on the circuit is really only useful when comparing your speed to someone else's. I can guarantee to you that, without even having to look at the dash, that my speeds through the Masta are consistently within a couple of mph of each other when I do it right (This 'right' of course is all very subjective <g>). Having a speedo would not improve my ability to take that section any quicker. It will only be when I finally get around to looking at replays of the hotshoes and compare my speed through there to theirs that I'm gonna say to myself 'Oh sh*t! Time for a rethink.'. :-) -- Peter Ives - (AKA Ivington) No person's opinions can be said to be more correct than another's, because each is the sole judge of his or her own experience.

Obiwan <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:01bf647e$71de1560$0be264c3@default...

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> > > Obiwan <[email hidden]> skrev i inl�gg > > > > > > > > > > Agree with everything in this post,as you really need to get > > every compensation you can for the limitations imposed on sims > > by current PC platforms.(except for reduced physical model !!!!!!!!) > > Well,maybe not EVERYTHING, upon further thought. > I still race only in the cockpit view,but I can understand > the reasons for wanting to race in the "arcade" view, > due to the limitations of the cockpit view. > Robert S�derberg > [email hidden]

Robert, Then use the head panning option. Once you get use to it, it really works very well. I have the panning on the right and left bottom buttons on my MSFF wheel. Easy to use, and very effective. Joel Willstein [email hidden]

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>I can guarantee to you that, without even having to look at the dash, >that my speeds through the Masta are consistently within a couple of mph >of each other when I do it right (This 'right' of course is all very >subjective <g>). Having a speedo would not improve my ability to take >that section any quicker. It will only be when I finally get around to >looking at replays of the hotshoes and compare my speed through there to >theirs that I'm gonna say to myself 'Oh sh*t! Time for a rethink.'. >:-)

...As I've been doing recently with Prydden's replay...<g> -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Joel Willstein <[email hidden]> skrev i inl�gg <86prh0$2of$[email hidden]>...

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> > > > Well,maybe not EVERYTHING, upon further thought. > > I still race only in the cockpit view,but I can understand > > the reasons for wanting to race in the "arcade" view, > > due to the limitations of the cockpit view. > > > Robert S�derberg > > [email hidden] > > Robert, > Then use the head panning option. Once you get use to it, it really > works very well. I have the panning on the right and left bottom buttons on > my MSFF wheel. Easy to use, and very effective. >

I do,I do..however, 1) I dont like the speed it moves,.. I would like to be able to adjust it,bot faster and slower for comparison. ...at least have the same of features and ease of moment as the virutal cockpits in the flight sims. 2) it's no comparing the head panning to what it would be like to have GPL with three screens....... that would at least BEGIN to approximate the sensory input of the driver situation in real life! -- Robert S�derberg [email hidden] If replying by mail,remove the word INGENSPAM from the adress.

Seeing how your talking in "what ifs" Better than just "3 screens" would be a head mounted display (high res) with head tracking! Now your fully immersed. "Obiwan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:01bf68fc$83cf2020$04e264c3@default...

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> > > Joel Willstein <[email hidden]> skrev i inl�gg > <86prh0$2of$[email hidden]>... > > > > > > > Well,maybe not EVERYTHING, upon further thought. > > > I still race only in the cockpit view,but I can understand > > > the reasons for wanting to race in the "arcade" view, > > > due to the limitations of the cockpit view. > > > > > Robert S�derberg > > > [email hidden] > > > > Robert, > > Then use the head panning option. Once you get use to it, it really > > works very well. I have the panning on the right and left bottom buttons

on

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> > my MSFF wheel. Easy to use, and very effective. > > > > I do,I do..however, > 1) I dont like the speed it moves,.. > I would like to be able to adjust it,bot faster and slower for comparison. > ...at least have the same of features and ease of moment > as the virutal cockpits in the flight sims. > 2) it's no comparing the head panning to what it would be like > to have GPL with three screens....... > that would at least BEGIN to approximate the sensory input > of the driver situation in real life! > > > -- > Robert S�derberg > [email hidden] > If replying by mail,remove the word INGENSPAM from the adress. > >

>> Robert, >> Then use the head panning option. Once you get use to it, it really >> works very well. I have the panning on the right and left bottom buttons on >> my MSFF wheel. Easy to use, and very effective. If I had extra buttons on my wheel, it might work. I don't - so I have to feel for the right keys...<crash!> <g> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

> >>> Robert, >>> Then use the head panning option. Once you get use to it, it really >>> works very well. I have the panning on the right and left bottom buttonson >>> my MSFF wheel. Easy to use, and very effective. > >If I had extra buttons on my wheel, it might work. I don't - so I have tofeel >for the right keys...<crash!> ><g> >Eldred >-- I've tried this, and it usually makes me fall off the chair! <vbg> Matt/GPLEA

Matt, You constantly pan your head when you drive your own car. You just have to get use to the method that gpl uses. But once you do, it's a great aid. Joel Willstien