God, why can't Logitech just add decent peddles and a shifter to their
***y FFB wheel?!?!?!?! It would solve the problem of looking for an
adequate wheel dead stop. No one would have to look further.
On that note, I am still struggling with my 2nd Ferrari wheel, which is a
bit better than the first, but still has virtually no FFB in N3/NL, weak FFB
in every other title, and lacks subtle FFB in every title. In addition, the
second wheel has 15 - 20 degrees of the wheel's turning radius at both ends
of the spectrum inexplicably cut-off: a giant physical dead zone at both
ends of the wheel. This scrunches the already marginal resolution of the
wheel (it's no higher than the brake pedal on the Ferrari) into an even
smaller arc, which results in jerky steering in any title where a tight
turning radius is required (GPL: Monaco [or all tracks if you like tight
steering as I do], RC 2000, etc., etc.)
I re-read Eagle Woman's assessment of wheels again and I think, as usual,
she has hit the nail on the head. She describes the belt-based ACT Labs
wheel and how it's built-in/inherent friction masks the subtle forces in
titles like GPL. The Ferrari wheel also uses belts and that seems to be
exactly what is happening.
The real kicker, though: I cannot find core.ini settings that work at all.
My starting point is to replicate the strength of forces that my Saitek R4
FFB wheel produced when it was set to 50% in the control panel. I used a
torque setting of 255 in the core.ini and got strong, but certainly not
overwhelming forces (I prefer that). The Saitek (MS-based) wheel would get
a bit notchy and clumsy of you cranked up the forces too high.
I have the Ferrari set to 100% forces in its control panel and I have to
adjust the torque in the core.ini to 70 to match the same level of FFB that
I had with the Saitek!!!!!! This will give people an indication of just how
weak the FFB on this wheel really is. (I also noticed on Allison's site
that someone from ACT Labs sets their wheel to 70 torque, too).
When the wheel is producing a decent amount of force, it oscillates wildly
in GPL when you make the slightest attempt to turn. I have tried no
damping, medium damping, high damping, no latency, medium latency and high
latency. No matter what settings I choose, I get wild oscillating. The
only way to eliminate the oscillation is to turn down (adjust numerically
upward) the torque setting until there is a complete lack of subtle FFB in
GPL. Then, you can control the oscillation.
I am begging people who are GPL and Ferrari wheel users to tell me that your
wheel doesn't do this!! If you are using lower torque settings, are you
feeling any subtle FFB? Have you ever used a good wheel to know what you
are missing? Can you get your wheel to operate "normally" (forget
subtleties, just without wild oscillating) at a setting of 70 for torque?
Unfortunately, I know of no other titles that allow for the direct
manipulation of FFB the way GPL does. I get weak FFB compared to my
previous wheel in every title even though I have FFB set at 100% with this
wheel instead of 50% with the Saitek. At 100%, and with the FFB set at 100%
in Rally Championship, the Saitek would have vibrated itself loose from my
desk just from the idle shake programmed into that game. With the Ferrari,
you can barely detect that there is an idle shake present. In N3/NL, if you
turn off the centring spring, you feel almost nothing that could be
described as FFB. Two wheels in a row...everyone (including Guillemot tech.
support) told me I must have a defective wheel, so I exchanged it.
Identical lack of FFB with the second wheel (the later release).
Help me out here with information folks, please. PLEASE!!!
The thought of those Logitech pedals and losing my real shifter is giving me
the shakes :)
Marc.
--
****************************************************************************
Marc Collins
Computers will never equal humans until they make mistakes and
blame them on other computers.
****************************************************************************
Guillemot Ferrari force feedback wheel problems
Marc Collins described weak force feedback and oscillation on his Guillemot Ferrari wheel in GPL. PDPI's Shumi criticised current wheels and talked up PDPI's forthcoming wheel, which drew a rebuke for knocking competitors. Mats Lofkvist found that setting the driver's spring gain to 0% greatly increased GPL's force feedback, an apparent driver bug that cured Collins's problems.
With Shumi (PDPI)
Automated summary.
It's the wheel Marc. They are all pathetically weak (G-Ferr).
I noticed that you brought up Allison's assessment of the AL Force-RS, and
I'm not entirely sure what she got (maybe a defective wheel herself). I have
the Force-RS and I notice every fleck of shale on the road, and all tremors
from 500 miles away (Obviously I'm being facetious). I think perhaps Allison
had her dampening or overall forces set too high..... I turned my dampening
and overall forces down to 70% and it's beautiful. In fact..... if I leave
it on 100% in RC2K things start to fall off the desk (seriously). Of
course..... the AL F-RS is cursed with pedals that are perhaps even worse
than the Logi, particularly when using it with the likes of GPL, etc.
I guess the guys at Guillemot were right in grabbing the Ferrari
association...... it apparently is suckering a LOT of people into what has
to be deemed a PATHETIC wheel technically.
Don't worry..... all is not lost in this. We (PDPI) are making a wheel for
y'all and rest assured we know ALL the things you want, and we know ALL the
shortcomings of the others.
We have just signed-up George Sandman as another Beta tester (he's the guy
who laps you 3 times in a Race), and we are confident that we have gathered
the most Neurotically Picky Experts available today (you might recognize a
few from TV if I told all the names).
It's coming Marc..... it just takes a bit of time to design perfection is
all :)
Cheers,
Jason "Shumi" Murray
Director of Marketing & Business Development
PDPI
****************************************************************************
> Marc Collins
> Computers will never equal humans until they make mistakes and
> blame them on other computers.
****************************************************************************
I've been following the Ferrari wheel feedback with great interest, and
now your comments as well. The main reason the Ferrari wheel attracts me is
the analog paddle support for throttle and brakes. I'm a paraplegic, and as
you might guess, pedals hold no interest for me at all. :) I am currently
using a Thrustmaster Charger wheel, which has reawakened a passion for sim
racing I long thought dead. GPL is SO much more playable with a wheel over a
joystick, and the subtle play of throttle and brake I can make now is simply
incomparable.
My question to you and PDPI then is do you plan on supporting analog
paddles for this purpose? I would buy the Wingman FF in a heartbeat if it
weren't for this feature. I don't want digital paddles - I don't intend to
use them for shifting. I can use buttons for that. I would love to see an
option for getting those analog paddles on a premium wheel. Will PDPI be the
answer to my prayers? Please? :)
Any idea when???? This sounds very exciting. Of course, remember that some
of us are on a budget, too. The Ferrari wheel is only $179 Canadian (that's
about $110 U.S.).
If you can combine the high resolution pedals of the Ferrari (and make them
more comfortable with a good slide-resistant base) with subtle but strong
feedback and decent resolution of the Logi (or the ACT Labs as you claim)
and put on a real shifter (I love the Ferrari's--very strong) and decent
paddles and have software as competently designed as the Logi profiler,
you'll certainly get my sale.
The analogue paddles that are redundant pedals are a bit strange in my
books. We have already heard that they work well for people with leg
disabilities, but I rather doubt that's what Guillemot had in mind. They
must be fairly expensive to include and I have no idea who would use them
(other than the aforementioned).
On the matter of Allison and the ACT Labs, I specifically pay attention to
her comments because she pays attention to the damping and latency and
torque settings as well as the control panel settings for the wheel. Do you
think it's possible that there is that much variation between units?? That
Allison thinks the ACT Labs is dead feeling and you think it rocks
(literally). I think the Ferrari is dead feeling, but others have said
theirs are fine?? And Allison and I are NOT interested in super-strong
forces, just the subtle ones. It seems backwards and the only explanation
is that one set of people are crazy or there really are dramatically
different feeling wheels that are on the surface the same models... What do
you think?
Marc.
> It's the wheel Marc. They are all pathetically weak (G-Ferr).
> I noticed that you brought up Allison's assessment of the AL Force-RS, and
> I'm not entirely sure what she got (maybe a defective wheel herself). I have
> the Force-RS and I notice every fleck of shale on the road, and all tremors
> from 500 miles away (Obviously I'm being facetious). I think perhaps Allison
> had her dampening or overall forces set too high..... I turned my dampening
the
> shortcomings of the others.
> We have just signed-up George Sandman as another Beta tester (he's the guy
> who laps you 3 times in a Race), and we are confident that we have gathered
a
the
> > wheel (it's no higher than the brake pedal on the Ferrari) into an even
> > smaller arc, which results in jerky steering in any title where a tight
> > turning radius is required (GPL: Monaco [or all tracks if you like tight
> > steering as I do], RC 2000, etc., etc.)
> > I re-read Eagle Woman's assessment of wheels again and I think, as usual,
> > she has hit the nail on the head. She describes the belt-based ACT Labs
> > wheel and how it's built-in/inherent friction masks the subtle forces in
> > titles like GPL. The Ferrari wheel also uses belts and that seems to be
> > exactly what is happening.
> > The real kicker, though: I cannot find core.ini settings that work at all.
> > My starting point is to replicate the strength of forces that my Saitek R4
> > FFB wheel produced when it was set to 50% in the control panel. I used a
wildly
> > in GPL when you make the slightest attempt to turn. I have tried no
> > damping, medium damping, high damping, no latency, medium latency and high
> > latency. No matter what settings I choose, I get wild oscillating. The
> > only way to eliminate the oscillation is to turn down (adjust numerically
> > upward) the torque setting until there is a complete lack of subtle FFB in
> > GPL. Then, you can control the oscillation.
> > I am begging people who are GPL and Ferrari wheel users to tell me that
> your
> > wheel doesn't do this!! If you are using lower torque settings, are you
> > feeling any subtle FFB? Have you ever used a good wheel to know what you
> > are missing? Can you get your wheel to operate "normally" (forget
> > subtleties, just without wild oscillating) at a setting of 70 for torque?
> > Unfortunately, I know of no other titles that allow for the direct
> > manipulation of FFB the way GPL does. I get weak FFB compared to my
> > previous wheel in every title even though I have FFB set at 100% with this
> > wheel instead of 50% with the Saitek. At 100%, and with the FFB set at
> 100%
> > in Rally Championship, the Saitek would have vibrated itself loose from my
giving
> me
> > the shakes :)
> > Marc.
> > --
****************************************************************************
> > Marc Collins
> > Computers will never equal humans until they make mistakes and
> > blame them on other computers.
****************************************************************************
Quoted text (11 lines)
> and overall forces down to 70% and it's beautiful. In fact..... if I leave > it on 100% in RC2K things start to fall off the desk (seriously). Of > course..... the AL F-RS is cursed with pedals that are perhaps even worse > than the Logi, particularly when using it with the likes of GPL, etc. > I guess the guys at Guillemot were right in grabbing the Ferrari > association...... it apparently is suckering a LOT of people into what has > to be deemed a PATHETIC wheel technically. > Don't worry..... all is not lost in this. We (PDPI) are making a wheel for > y'all and rest assured we know ALL the things you want, and we know ALLQuoted text (20 lines)
> the most Neurotically Picky Experts available today (you might recognize a > few from TV if I told all the names). > It's coming Marc..... it just takes a bit of time to design perfection is > all :) > Cheers, > Jason "Shumi" Murray > Director of Marketing & Business Development > PDPI > > God, why can't Logitech just add decent peddles and a shifter to their > > ***y FFB wheel?!?!?!?! It would solve the problem of looking for an > > adequate wheel dead stop. No one would have to look further. > > On that note, I am still struggling with my 2nd Ferrari wheel, which isQuoted text (8 lines)
> > bit better than the first, but still has virtually no FFB in N3/NL, weak > FFB > > in every other title, and lacks subtle FFB in every title. In addition, > the > > second wheel has 15 - 20 degrees of the wheel's turning radius at both > ends > > of the spectrum inexplicably cut-off: a giant physical dead zone at both > > ends of the wheel. This scrunches the already marginal resolution ofQuoted text (14 lines)
> > torque setting of 255 in the core.ini and got strong, but certainly not > > overwhelming forces (I prefer that). The Saitek (MS-based) wheel would > get > > a bit notchy and clumsy of you cranked up the forces too high. > > I have the Ferrari set to 100% forces in its control panel and I have to > > adjust the torque in the core.ini to 70 to match the same level of FFB > that > > I had with the Saitek!!!!!! This will give people an indication of just > how > > weak the FFB on this wheel really is. (I also noticed on Allison's site > > that someone from ACT Labs sets their wheel to 70 torque, too). > > When the wheel is producing a decent amount of force, it oscillatesQuoted text (13 lines)
> > desk just from the idle shake programmed into that game. With the > Ferrari, > > you can barely detect that there is an idle shake present. In N3/NL, if > you > > turn off the centring spring, you feel almost nothing that could be > > described as FFB. Two wheels in a row...everyone (including Guillemot > tech. > > support) told me I must have a defective wheel, so I exchanged it. > > Identical lack of FFB with the second wheel (the later release). > > Help me out here with information folks, please. PLEASE!!! > > The thought of those Logitech pedals and losing my real shifter isWith tremendous luck, the Ferrari is exactly what you need regarding your
disability. It is not a perfect wheel, but I can assure you that it is
several notches above a Thrustmaster Charger in just about every way. I am
fortunate enough with my legs that I can go on a goose chase for a wheel
that is even better than the Ferrari, but I think you would be thrilled with
the Ferrari under the circumstances. However, we have to make sure that GPL
can be adjusted to eliminate these oscillations at reasonable force levels,
so encourage others to reply, too. If that can be cured, then it will be
the wheel for you.
Just so you know it's not all bad: it is very well constructed, the wheel
itself feels great in your hands, the analogue paddles feel great, the
shifter paddles are a bit stiff, but you can use the buttons on the wheel to
shift if you prefer (and I think if you were using the paddles for gas and
brake you would do that--using the real shifter would mean taking your foot
off the gas completely every time you shifted), the pedals/paddles can be
used in 3-axis mode (essential for good control in GPL), it has a 3-year
warranty and the forces it can generate, when you can directly tweak them as
in GPL, are strong. Now if only we could get them accurate and unhindered
by wild oscillations!!!!
Good luck,
Marc.
> > Don't worry..... all is not lost in this. We (PDPI) are making a wheel for
> > y'all and rest assured we know ALL the things you want, and we know ALL
> the
> > shortcomings of the others.
> I've been following the Ferrari wheel feedback with great interest, and
> now your comments as well. The main reason the Ferrari wheel attracts me is
> the analog paddle support for throttle and brakes. I'm a paraplegic, and as
> you might guess, pedals hold no interest for me at all. :) I am currently
> using a Thrustmaster Charger wheel, which has reawakened a passion for sim
> racing I long thought dead. GPL is SO much more playable with a wheel over a
> joystick, and the subtle play of throttle and brake I can make now is simply
the
> answer to my prayers? Please? :)
Quoted text (7 lines)
> incomparable. > My question to you and PDPI then is do you plan on supporting analog > paddles for this purpose? I would buy the Wingman FF in a heartbeat if it > weren't for this feature. I don't want digital paddles - I don't intend to > use them for shifting. I can use buttons for that. I would love to see an > option for getting those analog paddles on a premium wheel. Will PDPI beHi Marc,
First I will go into resolution. We have EXPONENTIALLY higher resolution
that ANY controller on the market (that part is already developed and
completed). I'm not going to go into numbers until we release the
controller[s] so please be patient with this.
A Shifter WILL be present, and the design (mechanical and ergonomics) will
be scrutinized emphatically.
The paddles.... I am a racing sim fanatic myself, and I share in the disgust
for many wheels out there in this area. Rest assured that the paddles will
NOT be overlooked, and they will be scrutinized and tested by a wide number
of people to ensure that it is not only acceptable... but intuitive.
As for the forces.... we have the ability to crank the forces up quite a bit
(we do things a bit differently than the others ;]), and the range of forces
that will be available will be considerably higher than current
implementation (Immersion is talking with us regarding our new revelations
in FF). We ARE NOT simply going to make it strong and leave it there. "I"
too want those subtle effects to be felt, and we will not release it until
such time as we (and I) are satisfied with the end result. We will also be
exploring "tweaking" the .ifr codes in games to improve FF effects all
around, and particularly with our wheel. We do not have the position of
"Simply build it, and they will come." We are Sim fanatics... love sim
racing, and want to build a wheel that WE OURSELVES want to use. NOTHING
will be overlooked (We have attained the right crew already from around the
world to ensure this will happen).
Furthermore.... we will be giving back to the community on an unprecedented
level in many forms. I again cannot go into details at this time... but rest
assured we will not leave you at the alter after sale of the wheel. SERVICE
isn't our middle name... it's our FIRST NAME. Of course the best defense is
a good offense (meaning... we want to build a wheel that will not break...
so that our service department has only the Maytag man sitting at his desk).
Service is one thing... but the service department is MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE if
they are not needed at all. Some service departments seem to be good... but
I suspect it's through lots of practice (ala Thrustmaster last year).
As I said before.... we will also treat every review of the item as a beta
test after the fact. If we missed something for some unknown reason... we
will fix it immediately and make kits available to current owners to ensure
that they are not "penalized for buying early and being the guinea pigs".
As for the price... we will not build it if we cannot find a way to make it
for under $200.00 on the store shelves. We will explore ways to keep it
under 200 bucks whilst not compromising ANY quality or functionability.
Also... one need only look at our current software (Beta Versions) on the L4
to get a sneak peek at what we are going to do. L4 owners can combine
multiple devices plugged into multiple ports (USB, gameport, serial, etc.)
and make them one in the game. This allows us a "add-on" capability as time
goes by, and you will not have to replace the whole darned thing everytime
we come out with something new.
Our profiler WILL NOT be a part of our drivers. In fact... the profiler will
be completely separate from the drivers which allows more functionability
and less problems in the long run. You can bank on the fact that our
Software included will be better than Logi's.... we know what you want
because we are listening closely to you.
I hope this answers some of your questions, and I hope that I was not too
vague.
Cheers,
Jason "Shumi" Murray
Director of Marketing & Business Development
PDPI
Marc Collins <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:jd_h4.497$[email hidden]...
> Any idea when???? This sounds very exciting. Of course, remember that some
> of us are on a budget, too. The Ferrari wheel is only $179 Canadian (that's
> about $110 U.S.).
> If you can combine the high resolution pedals of the Ferrari (and make them
you
> think it's possible that there is that much variation between units?? That
> Allison thinks the ACT Labs is dead feeling and you think it rocks
> (literally). I think the Ferrari is dead feeling, but others have said
> theirs are fine?? And Allison and I are NOT interested in super-strong
> forces, just the subtle ones. It seems backwards and the only explanation
> is that one set of people are crazy or there really are dramatically
> different feeling wheels that are on the surface the same models... What do
and
leave
> > it on 100% in RC2K things start to fall off the desk (seriously). Of
> > course..... the AL F-RS is cursed with pedals that are perhaps even worse
> > than the Logi, particularly when using it with the likes of GPL, etc.
> > I guess the guys at Guillemot were right in grabbing the Ferrari
> > association...... it apparently is suckering a LOT of people into what has
> > to be deemed a PATHETIC wheel technically.
> > Don't worry..... all is not lost in this. We (PDPI) are making a wheel for
> > y'all and rest assured we know ALL the things you want, and we know ALL
> the
> > shortcomings of the others.
> > We have just signed-up George Sandman as another Beta tester (he's the guy
> > who laps you 3 times in a Race), and we are confident that we have
> gathered
> > the most Neurotically Picky Experts available today (you might recognize a
> > few from TV if I told all the names).
> > It's coming Marc..... it just takes a bit of time to design perfection is
is
> a
> > > bit better than the first, but still has virtually no FFB in N3/NL, weak
> > FFB
> > > in every other title, and lacks subtle FFB in every title. In addition,
> > the
> > > second wheel has 15 - 20 degrees of the wheel's turning radius at both
> > ends
> > > of the spectrum inexplicably cut-off: a giant physical dead zone at both
> > > ends of the wheel. This scrunches the already marginal resolution of
> the
> > > wheel (it's no higher than the brake pedal on the Ferrari) into an even
> > > smaller arc, which results in jerky steering in any title where a tight
> > > turning radius is required (GPL: Monaco [or all tracks if you like tight
> > > steering as I do], RC 2000, etc., etc.)
> > > I re-read Eagle Woman's assessment of wheels again and I think, as
> usual,
> > > she has hit the nail on the head. She describes the belt-based ACT Labs
> > > wheel and how it's built-in/inherent friction masks the subtle forces in
> > > titles like GPL. The Ferrari wheel also uses belts and that seems to be
> > > exactly what is happening.
> > > The real kicker, though: I cannot find core.ini settings that work at
> all.
> > > My starting point is to replicate the strength of forces that my Saitek
> R4
> > > FFB wheel produced when it was set to 50% in the control panel. I used
> a
> > > torque setting of 255 in the core.ini and got strong, but certainly not
> > > overwhelming forces (I prefer that). The Saitek (MS-based) wheel would
> > get
> > > a bit notchy and clumsy of you cranked up the forces too high.
> > > I have the Ferrari set to 100% forces in its control panel and I have to
> > > adjust the torque in the core.ini to 70 to match the same level of FFB
> > that
> > > I had with the Saitek!!!!!! This will give people an indication of just
> > how
> > > weak the FFB on this wheel really is. (I also noticed on Allison's site
The
> > > only way
...
read more »
Quoted text (15 lines)
> more comfortable with a good slide-resistant base) with subtle but strong > feedback and decent resolution of the Logi (or the ACT Labs as you claim) > and put on a real shifter (I love the Ferrari's--very strong) and decent > paddles and have software as competently designed as the Logi profiler, > you'll certainly get my sale. > The analogue paddles that are redundant pedals are a bit strange in my > books. We have already heard that they work well for people with leg > disabilities, but I rather doubt that's what Guillemot had in mind. They > must be fairly expensive to include and I have no idea who would use them > (other than the aforementioned). > On the matter of Allison and the ACT Labs, I specifically pay attention to > her comments because she pays attention to the damping and latency and > torque settings as well as the control panel settings for the wheel. DoQuoted text (9 lines)
> you think? > Marc. > "Shumi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:hvTh4.18420$[email hidden]... > > It's the wheel Marc. They are all pathetically weak (G-Ferr). > > I noticed that you brought up Allison's assessment of the AL Force-RS,Quoted text (9 lines)
> > I'm not entirely sure what she got (maybe a defective wheel herself). I > have > > the Force-RS and I notice every fleck of shale on the road, and all > tremors > > from 500 miles away (Obviously I'm being facetious). I think perhaps > Allison > > had her dampening or overall forces set too high..... I turned my > dampening > > and overall forces down to 70% and it's beautiful. In fact..... if IQuoted text (15 lines)
> > all :) > > Cheers, > > Jason "Shumi" Murray > > Director of Marketing & Business Development > > PDPI > > Marc Collins <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:MDRh4.299$[email hidden]... > > > God, why can't Logitech just add decent peddles and a shifter to their > > > bloody FFB wheel?!?!?!?! It would solve the problem of looking for an > > > adequate wheel dead stop. No one would have to look further. > > > On that note, I am still struggling with my 2nd Ferrari wheel, whichQuoted text (8 lines)
> > > that someone from ACT Labs sets their wheel to 70 torque, too). > > > When the wheel is producing a decent amount of force, it oscillates > wildly > > > in GPL when you make the slightest attempt to turn. I have tried no > > > damping, medium damping, high damping, no latency, medium latency and > high > > > latency. No matter what settings I choose, I get wild oscillating.Shumi, I'm really surprised and disappointed at your post. Compared to other
posts of yours that I've read, this one seems out of character for you. I
know its easy to get caught up in the frenzy of Marc's ranting, especially
since you have a wheel to promote, but knocking all the other wheels out
there isn't the way to do it. Keep in mind that Marc's other wheel is a
Saitek, Shumi, and he likes it. (no offense, Marc)
>It's the wheel Marc. They are all pathetically weak (G-Ferr).
They are not all 'pathertically' weak. And you see, you can't say that
unless you've tested all of them. We both know that one sample isn't
indicative of a product line. To make my upcoming 'shoot-out' review fair,
I've asked owners of Ferrari and Force RS wheels to email me with brief
comments. A few of them were from owners of both the LWFF and the Ferrari
wheel, and the consensus was that the Ferrari had MUCH stronger FF. There
may have been things that some liked better about the LWFF, but it wasn't
the strength of FF. With my test unit, the effects in Midtown Madness for
example, are so strong that I have to run the force at less than 100% or my
table shakes so badly that things fall down. And yes it's a strong table and
also yes, I still get subtle FF effects. In SCGT I had to turn down the FF
because (at strong settings) running over curbs actually yanks the wheel out
of my hands and pulls my onto the grass, which is not realistic at all.
Now, why is it technically PATHETIC? It's quite smooth, has strong FF, good
resolution and goes where you point it, and it has a very decent set of
pedals. The wheel rim is very comfortable, it has excellent paddles, added
levers for gas and brake, and a very nice stick shifter. (and it looks
good, too) From the feedback I've been getting (and one main reason for the
shoot-out), drivers are caring less about the technical aspects of the wheel
and are more concerned that it just plain works well. It doesn't matter how
it gets there, just that it does.
It's easy to know the shortcomings of the others, but will you know the
shortcomings of yours? You've got to market your product in a competitive
price range. That means compromises. If price were no object they'd all have
ballbearings on the steering shaft and pedals. And a buck's worth of extra
weight in the pedal base could be ten bucks extra for shipping each unit,
passed along to the customer (gotta think of everything). Also keep in mind
that no matter how good your wheel turns out, you won't please everyone, and
sooner or later it'll be your product on this side of this post. I
certainly hope your new wheel is great, but I've gotta say, "show me".
There's still time for me to make the review a 3-way shoot-out ;) Got an
extra beta?
I'm not saying here that the Ferrari wheel is perfect, or that it's the best
wheel available. But I'd be happy with it. I actually hope the Act Labs
wheel is even better. If if it is, I'll come right out and say so in the
review, and I'll even buy one. It doens't matter to me which wheel I buy for
myself. It'll be the one I like the best.
A final note on tech support. Guillmot's tech support is average by today's
standards, not terrible. Their forum is not tech support, and they even say
so (although I think it should be). Marc did get his replacement wheel, and
I got one quick response from emailing them, and 2 no replies. Not as bad
as I got from Diamond (before S3 bought them) or as bad as MS. But of
course, no way near as good as Act Labs, who seems to be a shining example
of what tech support could/should be.
Marc, get rid of your Ferrari wheel. At this point there is no way you will
be happy with it even with a perfect replacement. After what you've been
through its normal. You obviously like the Saitek wheel, so why not just
stick with it or buy a new one and save yourself all this unfortunate grief.
Don't put yourself through this. One wheel can't satisfy everyone and the
Ferrari just isn't for you. That doesn't mean its bad, its just not what
you want. It doesn't mean that one of us is "crazy", just different. Hey,
to some guys a big, blue Elvis on velvet is art. I sure don't agree, but it
doesn't mean I'm crazy.
Slot
OK, so you've got the best of the best, big deal. I think you need
someone to represent the pathetically slow great unwashed bottom
feeders.
Pick me! Pick me! ;)....
Anxiously awaiting a press release,
Kendt
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
...and i can send my check where? :)
i am getting giddy about this wheel, i want one NOW. i am a gpl fanatic and
have a msff (in closet) and a two clamp guillemot ferrari wheel. before the
msff i used a j-stick (many). the ff of the ferrari wheel is better than the
msff, but i find the steering arc is not so smooth. but i bought it cause
its pedals are good (so are msff), it has a shifter (a big +) it clams to my
desk better than msff and it looks slick. i am happy with it for now but
this pdpi wheel sounds great. usb is almost a must as i have other input
devices that i use.
need another beta tester? sandman only laps me twice :)
stompin on winvroc
"Shumi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:FZ0i4.18769$[email hidden]...
disgust
> for many wheels out there in this area. Rest assured that the paddles will
> NOT be overlooked, and they will be scrutinized and tested by a wide number
> of people to ensure that it is not only acceptable... but intuitive.
> As for the forces.... we have the ability to crank the forces up quite a bit
> (we do things a bit differently than the others ;]), and the range of forces
the
> world to ensure this will happen).
> Furthermore.... we will be giving back to the community on an unprecedented
> level in many forms. I again cannot go into details at this time... but rest
> assured we will not leave you at the alter after sale of the wheel. SERVICE
> isn't our middle name... it's our FIRST NAME. Of course the best defense is
> a good offense (meaning... we want to build a wheel that will not break...
> so that our service department has only the Maytag man sitting at his desk).
> Service is one thing... but the service department is MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE if
> they are not needed at all. Some service departments seem to be good... but
> I suspect it's through lots of practice (ala Thrustmaster last year).
> As I said before.... we will also treat every review of the item as a beta
> test after the fact. If we missed something for some unknown reason... we
> will fix it immediately and make kits available to current owners to ensure
> that they are not "penalized for buying early and being the guinea pigs".
> As for the price... we will not build it if we cannot find a way to make it
> for under $200.00 on the store shelves. We will explore ways to keep it
> under 200 bucks whilst not compromising ANY quality or functionability.
> Also... one need only look at our current software (Beta Versions) on the L4
> to get a sneak peek at what we are going to do. L4 owners can combine
> multiple devices plugged into multiple ports (USB, gameport, serial, etc.)
> and make them one in the game. This allows us a "add-on" capability as time
> goes by, and you will not have to replace the whole darned thing everytime
> we come out with something new.
> Our profiler WILL NOT be a part of our drivers. In fact... the profiler will
strong
> > feedback and decent resolution of the Logi (or the ACT Labs as you claim)
They
> > must be fairly expensive to include and I have no idea who would use them
> > (other than the aforementioned).
> > On the matter of Allison and the ACT Labs, I specifically pay attention to
explanation
> > is that one set of people are crazy or there really are dramatically
> > different feeling wheels that are on the surface the same models... What
I
ALL
recognize
their
> > > > bloody FFB wheel?!?!?!?! It would solve the problem of looking for an
both
> > > ends
> > > > of the spectrum inexplicably cut-off: a giant physical dead zone at
> both
> > > > ends of the wheel. This scrunches the already marginal resolution of
forces
> in
> > > > titles like GPL. The Ferrari wheel also uses belts and that seems to
> be
> > > > exactly what is happening.
> > > > The real kicker, though: I cannot find core.ini settings that work
...
read more »
Quoted text (11 lines)
> Hi Marc, > First I will go into resolution. We have EXPONENTIALLY higher resolution > that ANY controller on the market (that part is already developed and > completed). I'm not going to go into numbers until we release the > controller[s] so please be patient with this. > A Shifter WILL be present, and the design (mechanical and ergonomics) will > be scrutinized emphatically. > The paddles.... I am a racing sim fanatic myself, and I share in theQuoted text (10 lines)
> that will be available will be considerably higher than current > implementation (Immersion is talking with us regarding our new revelations > in FF). We ARE NOT simply going to make it strong and leave it there. "I" > too want those subtle effects to be felt, and we will not release it until > such time as we (and I) are satisfied with the end result. We will also be > exploring "tweaking" the .ifr codes in games to improve FF effects all > around, and particularly with our wheel. We do not have the position of > "Simply build it, and they will come." We are Sim fanatics... love sim > racing, and want to build a wheel that WE OURSELVES want to use. NOTHING > will be overlooked (We have attained the right crew already from aroundQuoted text (25 lines)
> be completely separate from the drivers which allows more functionability > and less problems in the long run. You can bank on the fact that our > Software included will be better than Logi's.... we know what you want > because we are listening closely to you. > I hope this answers some of your questions, and I hope that I was not too > vague. > Cheers, > Jason "Shumi" Murray > Director of Marketing & Business Development > PDPI > Marc Collins <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:jd_h4.497$[email hidden]... > > Any idea when???? This sounds very exciting. Of course, remember that > some > > of us are on a budget, too. The Ferrari wheel is only $179 Canadian > (that's > > about $110 U.S.). > > If you can combine the high resolution pedals of the Ferrari (and make > them > > more comfortable with a good slide-resistant base) with subtle butQuoted text (7 lines)
> > and put on a real shifter (I love the Ferrari's--very strong) and decent > > paddles and have software as competently designed as the Logi profiler, > > you'll certainly get my sale. > > The analogue paddles that are redundant pedals are a bit strange in my > > books. We have already heard that they work well for people with leg > > disabilities, but I rather doubt that's what Guillemot had in mind.Quoted text (9 lines)
> > her comments because she pays attention to the damping and latency and > > torque settings as well as the control panel settings for the wheel. Do > you > > think it's possible that there is that much variation between units?? > That > > Allison thinks the ACT Labs is dead feeling and you think it rocks > > (literally). I think the Ferrari is dead feeling, but others have said > > theirs are fine?? And Allison and I are NOT interested in super-strong > > forces, just the subtle ones. It seems backwards and the onlyQuoted text (12 lines)
> do > > you think? > > Marc. > > "Shumi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:hvTh4.18420$[email hidden]... > > > It's the wheel Marc. They are all pathetically weak (G-Ferr). > > > I noticed that you brought up Allison's assessment of the AL Force-RS, > and > > > I'm not entirely sure what she got (maybe a defective wheel herself).Quoted text (22 lines)
> > have > > > the Force-RS and I notice every fleck of shale on the road, and all > > tremors > > > from 500 miles away (Obviously I'm being facetious). I think perhaps > > Allison > > > had her dampening or overall forces set too high..... I turned my > > dampening > > > and overall forces down to 70% and it's beautiful. In fact..... if I > leave > > > it on 100% in RC2K things start to fall off the desk (seriously). Of > > > course..... the AL F-RS is cursed with pedals that are perhaps even > worse > > > than the Logi, particularly when using it with the likes of GPL, etc. > > > I guess the guys at Guillemot were right in grabbing the Ferrari > > > association...... it apparently is suckering a LOT of people into what > has > > > to be deemed a PATHETIC wheel technically. > > > Don't worry..... all is not lost in this. We (PDPI) are making a wheel > for > > > y'all and rest assured we know ALL the things you want, and we knowQuoted text (8 lines)
> > the > > > shortcomings of the others. > > > We have just signed-up George Sandman as another Beta tester (he's the > guy > > > who laps you 3 times in a Race), and we are confident that we have > > gathered > > > the most Neurotically Picky Experts available today (you mightQuoted text (16 lines)
> a > > > few from TV if I told all the names). > > > It's coming Marc..... it just takes a bit of time to design perfection > is > > > all :) > > > Cheers, > > > Jason "Shumi" Murray > > > Director of Marketing & Business Development > > > PDPI > > > Marc Collins <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:MDRh4.299$[email hidden]... > > > > God, why can't Logitech just add decent peddles and a shifter toQuoted text (12 lines)
> > > > adequate wheel dead stop. No one would have to look further. > > > > On that note, I am still struggling with my 2nd Ferrari wheel, which > is > > a > > > > bit better than the first, but still has virtually no FFB in N3/NL, > weak > > > FFB > > > > in every other title, and lacks subtle FFB in every title. In > addition, > > > the > > > > second wheel has 15 - 20 degrees of the wheel's turning radius atQuoted text (14 lines)
> > the > > > > wheel (it's no higher than the brake pedal on the Ferrari) into an > even > > > > smaller arc, which results in jerky steering in any title where a > tight > > > > turning radius is required (GPL: Monaco [or all tracks if you like > tight > > > > steering as I do], RC 2000, etc., etc.) > > > > I re-read Eagle Woman's assessment of wheels again and I think, as > > usual, > > > > she has hit the nail on the head. She describes the belt-based ACT > Labs > > > > wheel and how it's built-in/inherent friction masks the subtleMy previous post was as a Sim Racer..... not a competitor. I am left with a
feeling of being let down since I notice these same anomalies in wheels, and
it frustrates me to all heck (as a Sim Racer).
Frankly... we could just build joysticks and make more money at that (with
less risk)... we choose to build a Sim Wheel because we like to Sim Race and
we ourselves want a wheel that we can be satisfied with on our own desks at
home.
I'm sorry if I bash the competition, but that's because I have personally
spoken to the R/D teams from ALL in an attempt to originally license our
technology to them. They all said either "I don't want to spend an extra
$1.00 on something that people do not notice anyways [resolution, and other
features]" or, "We will wait to see if the other guys do it, since we do not
feel that our current implementations are faulty", "etc."
In fact... I see a post further down about Guillemot R/D asking if you guys
notice the difference. Funny thing is... I told them back in September that
you would, and that we could help them. You can tell them all they want...
their window of opportunity on the technology we posses is closed (we will
make our own). They cannot reach higher resolutions because they do not
posses the expertise in the interface field that we do. The problem is the
jitters... and they have to cut into the positioning resolution to defeat
it. The higher they raise the spectrum.... the more prone to jitters they
will be, and the further they will have to cut into resolution (it's a
double edged sword for them), leaving them with what they have now.
I suspect they ask now, in hopes that we will then license it to them after
the fact. This IS NOT the case anymore. We have the solution... they just
seemed to think that you wouldn't notice the problems we solve. Apparently
they were wrong, and it's showing now here on this forum, and others like
it.
Perhaps it's a bit aggressive in nature... it's out of pure frustration for
the [now] competition as a Sim Racer. They had their opportunity, and we
reacted the only way we know how... throw our hat into the ring.
Cheers,
Shumi
Director of Marketing & Business Development
PDPI
> Shumi, I'm really surprised and disappointed at your post. Compared to other
my
> table shakes so badly that things fall down. And yes it's a strong table and
> also yes, I still get subtle FF effects. In SCGT I had to turn down the FF
> because (at strong settings) running over curbs actually yanks the wheel out
> of my hands and pulls my onto the grass, which is not realistic at all.
> >I guess the guys at Guillemot were right in grabbing the Ferrari
> >association...... it apparently is suckering a LOT of people into what has
> >to be deemed a PATHETIC wheel technically.
> Now, why is it technically PATHETIC? It's quite smooth, has strong FF, good
> resolution and goes where you point it, and it has a very decent set of
> pedals. The wheel rim is very comfortable, it has excellent paddles, added
> levers for gas and brake, and a very nice stick shifter. (and it looks
> good, too) From the feedback I've been getting (and one main reason for the
> shoot-out), drivers are caring less about the technical aspects of the wheel
> and are more concerned that it just plain works well. It doesn't matter how
> it gets there, just that it does.
> >Don't worry..... all is not lost in this. We (PDPI) are making a wheel for
> >y'all and rest assured we know ALL the things you want, and we know ALL the
> >shortcomings of the others.
> It's easy to know the shortcomings of the others, but will you know the
> shortcomings of yours? You've got to market your product in a competitive
> price range. That means compromises. If price were no object they'd all have
> ballbearings on the steering shaft and pedals. And a buck's worth of extra
> weight in the pedal base could be ten bucks extra for shipping each unit,
> passed along to the customer (gotta think of everything). Also keep in mind
> that no matter how good your wheel turns out, you won't please everyone, and
> sooner or later it'll be your product on this side of this post. I
> certainly hope your new wheel is great, but I've gotta say, "show me".
> >We have just signed-up George Sandman as another Beta tester (he's the guy
> >who laps you 3 times in a Race), and we are confident that we have gathered
> >the most Neurotically Picky Experts available today (you might recognize a
> >few from TV if I told all the names).
> There's still time for me to make the review a 3-way shoot-out ;) Got an
> extra beta?
> I'm not saying here that the Ferrari wheel is perfect, or that it's the best
> wheel available. But I'd be happy with it. I actually hope the Act Labs
> wheel is even better. If if it is, I'll come right out and say so in the
> review, and I'll even buy one. It doens't matter to me which wheel I buy for
> myself. It'll be the one I like the best.
> A final note on tech support. Guillmot's tech support is average by today's
> standards, not terrible. Their forum is not tech support, and they even say
> so (although I think it should be). Marc did get his replacement wheel, and
> I got one quick response from emailing them, and 2 no replies. Not as bad
> as I got from Diamond (before S3 bought them) or as bad as MS. But of
> course, no way near as good as Act Labs, who seems to be a shining example
> of what tech support could/should be.
> Marc, get rid of your Ferrari wheel. At this point there is no way you will
> be happy with it even with a perfect replacement. After what you've been
> through its normal. You obviously like the Saitek wheel, so why not just
> stick with it or buy a new one and save yourself all this unfortunate grief.
> Don't put yourself through this. One wheel can't satisfy everyone and the
> Ferrari just isn't for you. That doesn't mean its bad, its just not what
> you want. It doesn't mean that one of us is "crazy", just different. Hey,
> to some guys a big, blue Elvis on velvet is art. I sure don't agree, but it
> doesn't mean I'm crazy.
> Slot
Quoted text (19 lines)
> posts of yours that I've read, this one seems out of character for you. I > know its easy to get caught up in the frenzy of Marc's ranting, especially > since you have a wheel to promote, but knocking all the other wheels out > there isn't the way to do it. Keep in mind that Marc's other wheel is a > Saitek, Shumi, and he likes it. (no offense, Marc) > >It's the wheel Marc. They are all pathetically weak (G-Ferr). > They are not all 'pathertically' weak. And you see, you can't say that > unless you've tested all of them. We both know that one sample isn't > indicative of a product line. To make my upcoming 'shoot-out' review fair, > I've asked owners of Ferrari and Force RS wheels to email me with brief > comments. A few of them were from owners of both the LWFF and the Ferrari > wheel, and the consensus was that the Ferrari had MUCH stronger FF. There > may have been things that some liked better about the LWFF, but it wasn't > the strength of FF. With my test unit, the effects in Midtown Madness for > example, are so strong that I have to run the force at less than 100% orECCI recieved my business because they didn't compromise, regardless of price.
Although I would like to buy a FF wheel, there isn't anyone in the market right
now who hasn't compromised, and really, isn't that what all the complaints
are about ? Ask for the best, but don't ask for it cheap, we've already got to
many examples of that.
--
Don Scurlock
Vancouver,B.C.
Vague? If your wheel is half as good as you describe, we'll all be lined up
with our wallets opened. Please keep us informed as the wheel gets closer
to production, but remember commercial messages are not welcome on Usenet,
so just keep telling us about all the great features and testing and
innovations. We'll figure out how to order and buy it by reading between
the lines!!
Marc.
"Shumi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:FZ0i4.18769$[email hidden]...
disgust
> for many wheels out there in this area. Rest assured that the paddles will
> NOT be overlooked, and they will be scrutinized and tested by a wide number
> of people to ensure that it is not only acceptable... but intuitive.
> As for the forces.... we have the ability to crank the forces up quite a bit
> (we do things a bit differently than the others ;]), and the range of forces
the
> world to ensure this will happen).
> Furthermore.... we will be giving back to the community on an unprecedented
> level in many forms. I again cannot go into details at this time... but rest
> assured we will not leave you at the alter after sale of the wheel. SERVICE
> isn't our middle name... it's our FIRST NAME. Of course the best defense is
> a good offense (meaning... we want to build a wheel that will not break...
> so that our service department has only the Maytag man sitting at his desk).
> Service is one thing... but the service department is MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE if
> they are not needed at all. Some service departments seem to be good... but
> I suspect it's through lots of practice (ala Thrustmaster last year).
> As I said before.... we will also treat every review of the item as a beta
> test after the fact. If we missed something for some unknown reason... we
> will fix it immediately and make kits available to current owners to ensure
> that they are not "penalized for buying early and being the guinea pigs".
> As for the price... we will not build it if we cannot find a way to make it
> for under $200.00 on the store shelves. We will explore ways to keep it
> under 200 bucks whilst not compromising ANY quality or functionability.
> Also... one need only look at our current software (Beta Versions) on the L4
> to get a sneak peek at what we are going to do. L4 owners can combine
> multiple devices plugged into multiple ports (USB, gameport, serial, etc.)
> and make them one in the game. This allows us a "add-on" capability as time
> goes by, and you will not have to replace the whole darned thing everytime
> we come out with something new.
> Our profiler WILL NOT be a part of our drivers. In fact... the profiler will
strong
> > feedback and decent resolution of the Logi (or the ACT Labs as you claim)
They
> > must be fairly expensive to include and I have no idea who would use them
> > (other than the aforementioned).
> > On the matter of Allison and the ACT Labs, I specifically pay attention to
explanation
> > is that one set of people are crazy or there really are dramatically
> > different feeling wheels that are on the surface the same models... What
I
ALL
recognize
their
> > > > bloody FFB wheel?!?!?!?! It would solve the problem of looking for an
both
> > > ends
> > > > of the spectrum inexplicably cut-off: a giant physical dead zone at
> both
> > > > ends of the wheel. This scrunches the already marginal resolution of
forces
> in
> > > > titles like GPL. The Ferrari wheel also uses belts and that seems to
> be
> > > > exactly what is happening.
> > > > The real kicker, though: I cannot find core.ini settings that work at
...
read more »
Quoted text (11 lines)
> Hi Marc, > First I will go into resolution. We have EXPONENTIALLY higher resolution > that ANY controller on the market (that part is already developed and > completed). I'm not going to go into numbers until we release the > controller[s] so please be patient with this. > A Shifter WILL be present, and the design (mechanical and ergonomics) will > be scrutinized emphatically. > The paddles.... I am a racing sim fanatic myself, and I share in theQuoted text (10 lines)
> that will be available will be considerably higher than current > implementation (Immersion is talking with us regarding our new revelations > in FF). We ARE NOT simply going to make it strong and leave it there. "I" > too want those subtle effects to be felt, and we will not release it until > such time as we (and I) are satisfied with the end result. We will also be > exploring "tweaking" the .ifr codes in games to improve FF effects all > around, and particularly with our wheel. We do not have the position of > "Simply build it, and they will come." We are Sim fanatics... love sim > racing, and want to build a wheel that WE OURSELVES want to use. NOTHING > will be overlooked (We have attained the right crew already from aroundQuoted text (25 lines)
> be completely separate from the drivers which allows more functionability > and less problems in the long run. You can bank on the fact that our > Software included will be better than Logi's.... we know what you want > because we are listening closely to you. > I hope this answers some of your questions, and I hope that I was not too > vague. > Cheers, > Jason "Shumi" Murray > Director of Marketing & Business Development > PDPI > Marc Collins <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:jd_h4.497$[email hidden]... > > Any idea when???? This sounds very exciting. Of course, remember that > some > > of us are on a budget, too. The Ferrari wheel is only $179 Canadian > (that's > > about $110 U.S.). > > If you can combine the high resolution pedals of the Ferrari (and make > them > > more comfortable with a good slide-resistant base) with subtle butQuoted text (7 lines)
> > and put on a real shifter (I love the Ferrari's--very strong) and decent > > paddles and have software as competently designed as the Logi profiler, > > you'll certainly get my sale. > > The analogue paddles that are redundant pedals are a bit strange in my > > books. We have already heard that they work well for people with leg > > disabilities, but I rather doubt that's what Guillemot had in mind.Quoted text (9 lines)
> > her comments because she pays attention to the damping and latency and > > torque settings as well as the control panel settings for the wheel. Do > you > > think it's possible that there is that much variation between units?? > That > > Allison thinks the ACT Labs is dead feeling and you think it rocks > > (literally). I think the Ferrari is dead feeling, but others have said > > theirs are fine?? And Allison and I are NOT interested in super-strong > > forces, just the subtle ones. It seems backwards and the onlyQuoted text (12 lines)
> do > > you think? > > Marc. > > "Shumi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:hvTh4.18420$[email hidden]... > > > It's the wheel Marc. They are all pathetically weak (G-Ferr). > > > I noticed that you brought up Allison's assessment of the AL Force-RS, > and > > > I'm not entirely sure what she got (maybe a defective wheel herself).Quoted text (22 lines)
> > have > > > the Force-RS and I notice every fleck of shale on the road, and all > > tremors > > > from 500 miles away (Obviously I'm being facetious). I think perhaps > > Allison > > > had her dampening or overall forces set too high..... I turned my > > dampening > > > and overall forces down to 70% and it's beautiful. In fact..... if I > leave > > > it on 100% in RC2K things start to fall off the desk (seriously). Of > > > course..... the AL F-RS is cursed with pedals that are perhaps even > worse > > > than the Logi, particularly when using it with the likes of GPL, etc. > > > I guess the guys at Guillemot were right in grabbing the Ferrari > > > association...... it apparently is suckering a LOT of people into what > has > > > to be deemed a PATHETIC wheel technically. > > > Don't worry..... all is not lost in this. We (PDPI) are making a wheel > for > > > y'all and rest assured we know ALL the things you want, and we knowQuoted text (8 lines)
> > the > > > shortcomings of the others. > > > We have just signed-up George Sandman as another Beta tester (he's the > guy > > > who laps you 3 times in a Race), and we are confident that we have > > gathered > > > the most Neurotically Picky Experts available today (you mightQuoted text (16 lines)
> a > > > few from TV if I told all the names). > > > It's coming Marc..... it just takes a bit of time to design perfection > is > > > all :) > > > Cheers, > > > Jason "Shumi" Murray > > > Director of Marketing & Business Development > > > PDPI > > > Marc Collins <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:MDRh4.299$[email hidden]... > > > > God, why can't Logitech just add decent peddles and a shifter toQuoted text (12 lines)
> > > > adequate wheel dead stop. No one would have to look further. > > > > On that note, I am still struggling with my 2nd Ferrari wheel, which > is > > a > > > > bit better than the first, but still has virtually no FFB in N3/NL, > weak > > > FFB > > > > in every other title, and lacks subtle FFB in every title. In > addition, > > > the > > > > second wheel has 15 - 20 degrees of the wheel's turning radius atQuoted text (14 lines)
> > the > > > > wheel (it's no higher than the brake pedal on the Ferrari) into an > even > > > > smaller arc, which results in jerky steering in any title where a > tight > > > > turning radius is required (GPL: Monaco [or all tracks if you like > tight > > > > steering as I do], RC 2000, etc., etc.) > > > > I re-read Eagle Woman's assessment of wheels again and I think, as > > usual, > > > > she has hit the nail on the head. She describes the belt-based ACT > Labs > > > > wheel and how it's built-in/inherent friction masks the subtleQuoted text (9 lines)
> > all. > > > > My starting point is to replicate the strength of forces that my > Saitek > > R4 > > > > FFB wheel produced when it was set to 50% in the control panel. I > used > > a > > > > torque setting of 255 in the core.ini and got strong, but certainly > notMy only point was that it is easy to design a top-notch product (we're not
talking rocket science with FFB steering controllers) if price point is not
an issue. Since it is an issue for 99% of the purchasers out there, it
should be considered. The issue was addressed satisfactorily in the reply to
my post, though.
Marc.
> >Any idea when???? This sounds very exciting. Of course, remember that some
> >of us are on a budget, too. The Ferrari wheel is only $179 Canadian (that's
> >about $110 U.S.).
> ECCI recieved my business because they didn't compromise, regardless of price.
> Although I would like to buy a FF wheel, there isn't anyone in the market right
> now who hasn't compromised, and really, isn't that what all the complaints
> are about ? Ask for the best, but don't ask for it cheap, we've already got to
> many examples of that.
> --
> Don Scurlock
> Vancouver,B.C.
You keep telling me to get rid of my Ferrari wheel because I will never be
satisfied with it. That is not true. If it worked like you describe yours
working, I would be completely satisfied given the price of the wheel.
I do not like or dislike the Saitek wheel in particular, but it has
performed reasonably well for me for a year and I know its good points and
bad points inside out. The Ferrari looks and feels like a much better wheel
at first glance, but may have some problems. I never return something or
give up on it until I am satisfied as to the reason. If the wheel really
does have poor steering resolution and moronic built-in dead zones, then I
am afraid I will have to return it. The combination of those two things
makes the wheel unusable for me in GPL and RC. The utter lack of FFB in N3
and NL makes the wheel unusable for me in those titles. If I turn off the
centring spring (and, actually, even if I leave it on), I may as well be
using a non-FFB wheel for those games. Now, I have played with the torque
settings in GPL and by cranking it way up can get substantial forces--but
wild, untameable oscillating seems to be the price I must pay. I hope you
will reply with your GPL settings and that you could take a couple of
minutes and input my torque setting (70) and tell me what you get.
There may be a Ferrari wheel out there that works well, but all of the
evidence so far is that they are more or less the same. Differences of
opinion are fine--what one person likes another may not, but no one of the
face of this planet can drive GPL with my Ferrari wheel set at 70 torque.
You won't even make it out of the pit lane. I has nothing to do with
opinion. All I would like to know is whether your wheel does the same
thing. If the forces are stronger than someone prefers at 70, OK, fine.
All I know is that I generally prefer less force than average and that I
have been able to measure and compare the force in GPL between my Saitek and
the Ferrari. Saitek 50% force, 255 torque = Ferrari 100% force at 70
torque. It would be great also if you could tell us what comparisons you
have with your wheel experience.
Once we can all compare at least one kind of apple to another, instead of an
apple to a banana, I can make an informed choice about whether to write-off
this wheel as unusable or to stick it out for a while longer and let
Guillemot help me.
For the record, Guillemot's tech. support (for me) has been average for the
industry...which is to say fairly bad. But their Manager is now willing to
interact with us a bit (see my later post), so I give them high marks for
that. I have told them I like the wheel enough and that has enough obvious
potential that I am willing to invest more time and frustration into the
process of trying to get it (or one) to work acceptably. If I thought it
was ***or if I was completely happy with my Saitek, I wouldn't bother
(unless I WAS crazy, which I don't think I am :) ).
Please reply with some direct comparables and put me out of my misery!!!
Thanks,
Marc.
> Shumi, I'm really surprised and disappointed at your post. Compared to other
my
> table shakes so badly that things fall down. And yes it's a strong table and
> also yes, I still get subtle FF effects. In SCGT I had to turn down the FF
> because (at strong settings) running over curbs actually yanks the wheel out
> of my hands and pulls my onto the grass, which is not realistic at all.
> >I guess the guys at Guillemot were right in grabbing the Ferrari
> >association...... it apparently is suckering a LOT of people into what has
> >to be deemed a PATHETIC wheel technically.
> Now, why is it technically PATHETIC? It's quite smooth, has strong FF, good
> resolution and goes where you point it, and it has a very decent set of
> pedals. The wheel rim is very comfortable, it has excellent paddles, added
> levers for gas and brake, and a very nice stick shifter. (and it looks
> good, too) From the feedback I've been getting (and one main reason for the
> shoot-out), drivers are caring less about the technical aspects of the wheel
> and are more concerned that it just plain works well. It doesn't matter how
> it gets there, just that it does.
> >Don't worry..... all is not lost in this. We (PDPI) are making a wheel for
> >y'all and rest assured we know ALL the things you want, and we know ALL the
> >shortcomings of the others.
> It's easy to know the shortcomings of the others, but will you know the
> shortcomings of yours? You've got to market your product in a competitive
> price range. That means compromises. If price were no object they'd all have
> ballbearings on the steering shaft and pedals. And a buck's worth of extra
> weight in the pedal base could be ten bucks extra for shipping each unit,
> passed along to the customer (gotta think of everything). Also keep in mind
> that no matter how good your wheel turns out, you won't please everyone, and
> sooner or later it'll be your product on this side of this post. I
> certainly hope your new wheel is great, but I've gotta say, "show me".
> >We have just signed-up George Sandman as another Beta tester (he's the guy
> >who laps you 3 times in a Race), and we are confident that we have gathered
> >the most Neurotically Picky Experts available today (you might recognize a
> >few from TV if I told all the names).
> There's still time for me to make the review a 3-way shoot-out ;) Got an
> extra beta?
> I'm not saying here that the Ferrari wheel is perfect, or that it's the best
> wheel available. But I'd be happy with it. I actually hope the Act Labs
> wheel is even better. If if it is, I'll come right out and say so in the
> review, and I'll even buy one. It doens't matter to me which wheel I buy for
> myself. It'll be the one I like the best.
> A final note on tech support. Guillmot's tech support is average by today's
> standards, not terrible. Their forum is not tech support, and they even say
> so (although I think it should be). Marc did get his replacement wheel, and
> I got one quick response from emailing them, and 2 no replies. Not as bad
> as I got from Diamond (before S3 bought them) or as bad as MS. But of
> course, no way near as good as Act Labs, who seems to be a shining example
> of what tech support could/should be.
> Marc, get rid of your Ferrari wheel. At this point there is no way you will
> be happy with it even with a perfect replacement. After what you've been
> through its normal. You obviously like the Saitek wheel, so why not just
> stick with it or buy a new one and save yourself all this unfortunate grief.
> Don't put yourself through this. One wheel can't satisfy everyone and the
> Ferrari just isn't for you. That doesn't mean its bad, its just not what
> you want. It doesn't mean that one of us is "crazy", just different. Hey,
> to some guys a big, blue Elvis on velvet is art. I sure don't agree, but it
> doesn't mean I'm crazy.
> Slot
Quoted text (19 lines)
> posts of yours that I've read, this one seems out of character for you. I > know its easy to get caught up in the frenzy of Marc's ranting, especially > since you have a wheel to promote, but knocking all the other wheels out > there isn't the way to do it. Keep in mind that Marc's other wheel is a > Saitek, Shumi, and he likes it. (no offense, Marc) > >It's the wheel Marc. They are all pathetically weak (G-Ferr). > They are not all 'pathertically' weak. And you see, you can't say that > unless you've tested all of them. We both know that one sample isn't > indicative of a product line. To make my upcoming 'shoot-out' review fair, > I've asked owners of Ferrari and Force RS wheels to email me with brief > comments. A few of them were from owners of both the LWFF and the Ferrari > wheel, and the consensus was that the Ferrari had MUCH stronger FF. There > may have been things that some liked better about the LWFF, but it wasn't > the strength of FF. With my test unit, the effects in Midtown Madness for > example, are so strong that I have to run the force at less than 100% orAs a side note, because of your comments here, I decided to dig out my
Midtown Madness and SCGT.
In MM, I had the road forces set to about 25% with my Saitek and I found
that it worked well unless your car was just about completely wrecked with
wobbly wheels, etc., then it was just a bit too much force, but I liked it
for the rest of the time set at that level. I left the setting the same and
tried the Ferrari...big surprise, weak and barely noticeable FFB. I cranked
up the road forces to 100% and it is probably just a bit below my old
setting, but certainly OK. The only problem is if someone wanted more
force, too bad--it is completely maxed-out.
SCGT...weak forces and certainly nothing like you describe.
I honestly do not think you are crazy or lying. It just proves that
something really messed-up is happening with these Ferrari wheels since you
obviously have one that produces what seem like "normal" forces and I have
had two in a row that are duds.
Thanks again for this feedback as it allowed me to compare my wheel
experience again.
Marc.
Let me put this into perspective.
We (PDPI) were originally going to stay out of the controller market as
manufacturers, and simply supply our expertise in the interface dept. as a
B->B (business to business) company (in the form of licensing). As we have
done so far in a matter of speaking with the L4.
We demonstrated to all (ALL of them), and they were very surprised with our
accomplishments. However, when the fact that it would cost them literally
$1.80 per unit more (after cost of chip and licensing were calculated) was
presented... they all pretty much had the same answer... "We don't think
that the users will notice the difference in resolution and other
features... so we cannot justify the increase in price...". Furthermore...
they don't seem to think that you particularly notice ANY of the
shortcomings, and with a bit of marketing they could overcome it (leave you
***).
So... realistically there is a potential for someone to mass produce a
controller that meets the needs of the consumer in the form of quality. WE
are who aspire to do such. ECCI and TSW are among our friends since they are
the ONLY people who saw our technology and said "that is the ONLY USB
implementation we would consider using since we are quality oriented." I
have a very good relationship with these guys, and I have ZERO reservations
in referring their products (they make a great product and are consumer
oriented in the end).
I sincerely wish that those who are champions of the other controller
manufacturers, had sit in on one of these meetings I had with them to see
just how oblivious they are to your needs. I am not saying this as a
competitor (since I have no product to compare... yet...), but rather as a
Sim Racer who walked away thoroughly disgusted with the attitude. "I" am the
guy who moved PDPI into the controller market, "I" am the guy who went out
and raised the capital to enable this cause, "I" am the guy who wants an
affordable controller of quality, and "I" am the guy who will make DAMN SURE
that it is possible. Don't classify me as a marter... I am just like you...
a guy who wants more, and has seen that it can be achieved at an affordable
price. So shoot me for being a Sim fan who wants more, and has been put in a
position to make a difference in the hobby I just ruined by making it my job
(and dropping 3 profitable businesses to accomplish this cause in your
request.) I don't want your simpathy, and I don't want your encouragement...
I just want a wheel that I can call "perfect" in every aspect including
price! It CAN BE DONE, and WILL BE DONE.
Everyone can curse me for being vague at this point, and others can curse me
for putting down the rest. In the end... I am simply holding the others
accountable for attrocious oversights and even worse results. I, or should I
say "we" are on YOUR SIDE. WE want a better controller (in all genres), and
have worked our ass off to make it happen.
Curse us now... you'll love us soon... I am confident of this.
BTW... come May... I'll put our achievements against the rest at E3, and we
"expect" controller of the year hands down. The others simply aren't even
CLOSE to us in interface technology, but then this isn't big news... we have
been carrying them for a while now in the analog side. Just wait until you
see what we have done for USB :)))))))))))
Cheers,
Shumi
P.S. Not directed at any particular reply..... just a general reply to the
thread that seems to have caused some controversy regarding my presence and
demand of accountability from the other controller manufacturers.
> My only point was that it is easy to design a top-notch product (we're not
> talking rocket science with FFB steering controllers) if price point is not
> an issue. Since it is an issue for 99% of the purchasers out there, it
> should be considered. The issue was addressed satisfactorily in the reply to
market
Quoted text (19 lines)
> my post, though. > Marc. > > >Any idea when???? This sounds very exciting. Of course, remember that > some > > >of us are on a budget, too. The Ferrari wheel is only $179 Canadian > (that's > > >about $110 U.S.). > > ECCI recieved my business because they didn't compromise, regardless of > price. > > Although I would like to buy a FF wheel, there isn't anyone in theQuoted text (10 lines)
> right > > now who hasn't compromised, and really, isn't that what all the > complaints > > are about ? Ask for the best, but don't ask for it cheap, we've already > got to > > many examples of that. > > -- > > Don Scurlock > > Vancouver,B.C.You're talking to the bottom feeder as far as lap times in GPL... and you
also have the hammer bearing 2 year old "structural test engineer" that is
attached at my side. I can appreciate your point, but rest assured that we
have gathered people from both ability and computer configuration. It is
important to not only have a broad spectrum of personalities and
abilities.... but also configurations and basic time. We want people to
comment on the precision as much as the sustained beating to no end that it
received successfully or unsuccessfully. We WILL NOT rush this unit to
market like the rest......... perfect... or not at all (and under 200 bucks
BTW).
Cheers,
Shumi
P.S. I keep this post on file in case you have interest in other genres we
are entering (if you're going to throw your hat in the ring.... throw them
all.... we are ALWAYS interested in those willing to contribute to the
common cause).
Quoted text (19 lines)
> > We have just signed-up George Sandman as another Beta tester (he's the > >guy > > who laps you 3 times in a Race), and we are confident that we have > >gathered > > the most Neurotically Picky Experts available today (you might > >recognize a > > few from TV if I told all the names). > OK, so you've got the best of the best, big deal. I think you need > someone to represent the pathetically slow great unwashed bottom > feeders. > Pick me! Pick me! ;).... > Anxiously awaiting a press release, > Kendt > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy.> out and raised the capital to enable this cause, "I" am the guy who
> make DAMN SURE that it is possible.
I do hope that IF your product ever reaches the market place that us sim
racers dont have to wait as long to purchase it as we do at present for
the much famed PDPI L4 card which it seems has a pre order time of 90
days. A very strange state of affairs......
MikeT.
--
I've had a Ferrari wheel for about 10 days now, and even though
it is far from perfect, it seems mine is quite different from yours.
I have no complaints at all about the strength of the FF.
The first week I used max torq 500 in GPL, now I'm using 250.
With 500 the strong forces are very noticeable, but I don't have
to use brute force to turn the wheel. With 250 some tracks are
getting close to being a decent workout (e.g. Texas from the
N3 demo). I have tried a few laps with the N3 demo also, and the
FF is strong enough there also (i.e. stronger would make it quite
hard to drive).
My top complaint is that the wheel is notchy. The strong (imo)
FF seems to come from a motor that have been choosen more by
power than by smothness. The notchiness have two bad effects,
the first being that it hides subtle forces (and even rather
strong forces when the wheel is stationary), the second being
that for me it ruins the immersion effect since I really don't
beleive that real GP cars feels like there is gravel in the
steering rack.
My second complaint is that the resolution of the wheel is to
low (around 100, it outputs ~0-1000 in steps of 10). With the
notches in the wheel fine control hard anyway, so this isn't
as noticeable as you would guess from the numbers (my old
wheel with a precision potentiometer makes the PDPI resolution
of 256 quite noticeable).
I propose the following as a FF dynamic resolution test that
will tell more about how much information a wheel is capable
of sending to the driver than the force available:
- start IForce studio and setup the periodic (sinus) force
- set the frequency to 10 Hz and the time to infinite
- check that the max force setting is not clipping, i.e.
that a value below max (10000) really feels weaker than
the max
test 1, stationary:
- hands off the wheel
- start with a peek force setting somewhere in the middle
and decrease it in small steps until the wheel stops moving
- the result is the max value divided by the value when the
wheel stops moving
test 2, moving:
- the same as test 1 but while moving the wheel
- the result is the max value divided by the value when you
can't feel the forces anymore
With my Ferrari wheel, the test 1 result is ~2500 (of 10000)
giving a factor 4 dynamic range which I is quite bad imo.
The test 2 result is ~750 (of 10000) giving a factor ~13
dynamic range which is more reasonable. What this means in
practice with the Ferrari wheel is that you have to move
it around to feel the weaker forces.
It would be interresting to now what results others get on
this test, especially with the Logitech FF wheel.
_
Mats Lofkvist
My current configuration:
IForce
Overall 100%
Spring 0%
Damping 25%
GPL
max torq 250
delay 0.025
damping 5
In GPL I have the steering hack turned off (i.e. no decreased
turning radius at lower speeds) and use a steering ratio of
12 on most tracks (18 at Texas). The linearity slider is
at its leftmost position (i.e. full linearity).
Alex,
TSW designed such a wheel for a parapalegic and they have added it to their
product line. If you are interested in a much higher quality non-FF wheel
you won't find better quality than TSW. TSW wheels are significantly more
precise and robust than any wheel ever made by TM. I own a TSW2 and it is a
tank. I also own a LWFF and love the FF so I have a real dilemma ;-).
Head-to-head the TSW2 is clearly more durable due to it's simple design and
use of higher quality parts (mostly wood and metal). It will no doubt last
as long as several LWFF wheels. They are hand made by a small U.S. company.
Real nice guys. Here is their site:
http://www.thomas-superwheel.com/
Joe
Wow, what a reply!! Thanks for all of this valuable and insightful
information.
Sounds like we both hate the low resolution of the wheel (please see my post
below to give feedback to Guillemot), but you are another person who has
much stronger FFB than I have had with either of mine. "GTX_SlotCar" also
says that his has more than adequate forces. If I set my torque in GPL to
500, I would feel absolutely nothing. Even at 250, there are barely any
perceptible forces.
I am now going to study the rest of your reply (the technical part).
Thanks again,
Marc.
Quoted text (80 lines)
> I've had a Ferrari wheel for about 10 days now, and even though > it is far from perfect, it seems mine is quite different from yours. > I have no complaints at all about the strength of the FF. > The first week I used max torq 500 in GPL, now I'm using 250. > With 500 the strong forces are very noticeable, but I don't have > to use brute force to turn the wheel. With 250 some tracks are > getting close to being a decent workout (e.g. Texas from the > N3 demo). I have tried a few laps with the N3 demo also, and the > FF is strong enough there also (i.e. stronger would make it quite > hard to drive). > My top complaint is that the wheel is notchy. The strong (imo) > FF seems to come from a motor that have been choosen more by > power than by smothness. The notchiness have two bad effects, > the first being that it hides subtle forces (and even rather > strong forces when the wheel is stationary), the second being > that for me it ruins the immersion effect since I really don't > beleive that real GP cars feels like there is gravel in the > steering rack. > My second complaint is that the resolution of the wheel is to > low (around 100, it outputs ~0-1000 in steps of 10). With the > notches in the wheel fine control hard anyway, so this isn't > as noticeable as you would guess from the numbers (my old > wheel with a precision potentiometer makes the PDPI resolution > of 256 quite noticeable). > I propose the following as a FF dynamic resolution test that > will tell more about how much information a wheel is capable > of sending to the driver than the force available: > - start IForce studio and setup the periodic (sinus) force > - set the frequency to 10 Hz and the time to infinite > - check that the max force setting is not clipping, i.e. > that a value below max (10000) really feels weaker than > the max > test 1, stationary: > - hands off the wheel > - start with a peek force setting somewhere in the middle > and decrease it in small steps until the wheel stops moving > - the result is the max value divided by the value when the > wheel stops moving > test 2, moving: > - the same as test 1 but while moving the wheel > - the result is the max value divided by the value when you > can't feel the forces anymore > With my Ferrari wheel, the test 1 result is ~2500 (of 10000) > giving a factor 4 dynamic range which I is quite bad imo. > The test 2 result is ~750 (of 10000) giving a factor ~13 > dynamic range which is more reasonable. What this means in > practice with the Ferrari wheel is that you have to move > it around to feel the weaker forces. > It would be interresting to now what results others get on > this test, especially with the Logitech FF wheel. > _ > Mats Lofkvist > My current configuration: > IForce > Overall 100% > Spring 0% > Damping 25% > GPL > max torq 250 > delay 0.025 > damping 5 > In GPL I have the steering hack turned off (i.e. no decreased > turning radius at lower speeds) and use a steering ratio of > 12 on most tracks (18 at Texas). The linearity slider is > at its leftmost position (i.e. full linearity).OK Mats,
I tried the IForce Studio test:
My results were 1900 for test 1 and 400 for test 2...the opposite of what I
expected given that your wheel apparently has a lot more force output than
mine. Perhaps I am misunderstanding the results, but I am also wondering
will control panel settings affect this test or does it read the wheel
"directly"?
Also, My settings in the control panel are 100% overall, 100% spring, and 0%
damping with 20% centring for non-FFB games. Did I read your settings
correctly as 0% spring or was that a typo?
Do the results reflect what you would think (that the weak wheel seems to
perform better down the scale further)? How do we know how strong the 10000
force is one unit vs. another? Maybe mine has a wider (from top to bottom),
but shallower dynamic range...in other words the strongest forces are weaker
and so are the weaker forces weaker, but there is a wider range than maybe
your wheel where it is very strong but drops off quickly??
I look forward to your thoughts, and I do hope Logi owners will try this and
contribute, too.
Marc.
Quoted text (80 lines)
> I've had a Ferrari wheel for about 10 days now, and even though > it is far from perfect, it seems mine is quite different from yours. > I have no complaints at all about the strength of the FF. > The first week I used max torq 500 in GPL, now I'm using 250. > With 500 the strong forces are very noticeable, but I don't have > to use brute force to turn the wheel. With 250 some tracks are > getting close to being a decent workout (e.g. Texas from the > N3 demo). I have tried a few laps with the N3 demo also, and the > FF is strong enough there also (i.e. stronger would make it quite > hard to drive). > My top complaint is that the wheel is notchy. The strong (imo) > FF seems to come from a motor that have been choosen more by > power than by smothness. The notchiness have two bad effects, > the first being that it hides subtle forces (and even rather > strong forces when the wheel is stationary), the second being > that for me it ruins the immersion effect since I really don't > beleive that real GP cars feels like there is gravel in the > steering rack. > My second complaint is that the resolution of the wheel is to > low (around 100, it outputs ~0-1000 in steps of 10). With the > notches in the wheel fine control hard anyway, so this isn't > as noticeable as you would guess from the numbers (my old > wheel with a precision potentiometer makes the PDPI resolution > of 256 quite noticeable). > I propose the following as a FF dynamic resolution test that > will tell more about how much information a wheel is capable > of sending to the driver than the force available: > - start IForce studio and setup the periodic (sinus) force > - set the frequency to 10 Hz and the time to infinite > - check that the max force setting is not clipping, i.e. > that a value below max (10000) really feels weaker than > the max > test 1, stationary: > - hands off the wheel > - start with a peek force setting somewhere in the middle > and decrease it in small steps until the wheel stops moving > - the result is the max value divided by the value when the > wheel stops moving > test 2, moving: > - the same as test 1 but while moving the wheel > - the result is the max value divided by the value when you > can't feel the forces anymore > With my Ferrari wheel, the test 1 result is ~2500 (of 10000) > giving a factor 4 dynamic range which I is quite bad imo. > The test 2 result is ~750 (of 10000) giving a factor ~13 > dynamic range which is more reasonable. What this means in > practice with the Ferrari wheel is that you have to move > it around to feel the weaker forces. > It would be interresting to now what results others get on > this test, especially with the Logitech FF wheel. > _ > Mats Lofkvist > My current configuration: > IForce > Overall 100% > Spring 0% > Damping 25% > GPL > max torq 250 > delay 0.025 > damping 5 > In GPL I have the steering hack turned off (i.e. no decreased > turning radius at lower speeds) and use a steering ratio of > 12 on most tracks (18 at Texas). The linearity slider is > at its leftmost position (i.e. full linearity).Hi Mike...
No one hates the delays we are experiencing with the L4s as much as we do.
The choice to throw our hats into the ring as far as controllers go, has
required that we raise additional capital to finance the mass production
(it's costly to make a lot of controllers and keep them at an affordable
price). This has brought us into a catch-22. The people who will be
investing in PDPI to allow us to go mass production have stipulated that
they wish us to hold off on our manufacturing of the L4s with our current
manufacturer in China. They want to close the deal, and look at some of
their contacts in China to see if we can produce it for cheaper (and sell it
for less too).
In the end... we expect the deal to be completed this coming week, at which
point we will initiate our order (with whomever) immediately (end of the
next week). This means that you can expect your L4 in 5 weeks at the latest.
We are also redoing our website (completely), so we have let the updates on
the site slip. 5 weeks, and you can hold me to that, or I ship mine to you.
Cheers,
Shumi
Director of Marketing & Business Development
PDPI
Quoted text (14 lines)
> > "I" am the > > guy who moved PDPI into the controller market, "I" am the guy who went > > out and raised the capital to enable this cause, "I" am the guy who > > wants an affordable controller of quality, and "I" am the guy who will > > make DAMN SURE that it is possible. > I do hope that IF your product ever reaches the market place that us sim > racers dont have to wait as long to purchase it as we do at present for > the much famed PDPI L4 card which it seems has a pre order time of 90 > days. A very strange state of affairs...... > MikeT. > --Where'd you get the wheel for $179 Canadian? I paid the $129USD for
mine from their website! is there a store in Toronto that you got it
from?
Canadians can get paid to surf!
https://www.alladvantage.com/joinsecure.asp?refid=ALW803
On Fri, 21 Jan 2000 14:40:15 GMT, "Marc Collins"
<[email hidden]> wrote:
Quoted text (179 lines)
>Any idea when???? This sounds very exciting. Of course, remember that some >of us are on a budget, too. The Ferrari wheel is only $179 Canadian (that's >about $110 U.S.). >If you can combine the high resolution pedals of the Ferrari (and make them >more comfortable with a good slide-resistant base) with subtle but strong >feedback and decent resolution of the Logi (or the ACT Labs as you claim) >and put on a real shifter (I love the Ferrari's--very strong) and decent >paddles and have software as competently designed as the Logi profiler, >you'll certainly get my sale. >The analogue paddles that are redundant pedals are a bit strange in my >books. We have already heard that they work well for people with leg >disabilities, but I rather doubt that's what Guillemot had in mind. They >must be fairly expensive to include and I have no idea who would use them >(other than the aforementioned). >On the matter of Allison and the ACT Labs, I specifically pay attention to >her comments because she pays attention to the damping and latency and >torque settings as well as the control panel settings for the wheel. Do you >think it's possible that there is that much variation between units?? That >Allison thinks the ACT Labs is dead feeling and you think it rocks >(literally). I think the Ferrari is dead feeling, but others have said >theirs are fine?? And Allison and I are NOT interested in super-strong >forces, just the subtle ones. It seems backwards and the only explanation >is that one set of people are crazy or there really are dramatically >different feeling wheels that are on the surface the same models... What do >you think? >Marc. >"Shumi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:hvTh4.18420$[email hidden]... >> It's the wheel Marc. They are all pathetically weak (G-Ferr). >> I noticed that you brought up Allison's assessment of the AL Force-RS, and >> I'm not entirely sure what she got (maybe a defective wheel herself). I >have >> the Force-RS and I notice every fleck of shale on the road, and all >tremors >> from 500 miles away (Obviously I'm being facetious). I think perhaps >Allison >> had her dampening or overall forces set too high..... I turned my >dampening >> and overall forces down to 70% and it's beautiful. In fact..... if I leave >> it on 100% in RC2K things start to fall off the desk (seriously). Of >> course..... the AL F-RS is cursed with pedals that are perhaps even worse >> than the Logi, particularly when using it with the likes of GPL, etc. >> I guess the guys at Guillemot were right in grabbing the Ferrari >> association...... it apparently is suckering a LOT of people into what has >> to be deemed a PATHETIC wheel technically. >> Don't worry..... all is not lost in this. We (PDPI) are making a wheel for >> y'all and rest assured we know ALL the things you want, and we know ALL >the >> shortcomings of the others. >> We have just signed-up George Sandman as another Beta tester (he's the guy >> who laps you 3 times in a Race), and we are confident that we have >gathered >> the most Neurotically Picky Experts available today (you might recognize a >> few from TV if I told all the names). >> It's coming Marc..... it just takes a bit of time to design perfection is >> all :) >> Cheers, >> Jason "Shumi" Murray >> Director of Marketing & Business Development >> PDPI >> Marc Collins <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:MDRh4.299$[email hidden]... >> > God, why can't Logitech just add decent peddles and a shifter to their >> > bloody FFB wheel?!?!?!?! It would solve the problem of looking for an >> > adequate wheel dead stop. No one would have to look further. >> > On that note, I am still struggling with my 2nd Ferrari wheel, which is >a >> > bit better than the first, but still has virtually no FFB in N3/NL, weak >> FFB >> > in every other title, and lacks subtle FFB in every title. In addition, >> the >> > second wheel has 15 - 20 degrees of the wheel's turning radius at both >> ends >> > of the spectrum inexplicably cut-off: a giant physical dead zone at both >> > ends of the wheel. This scrunches the already marginal resolution of >the >> > wheel (it's no higher than the brake pedal on the Ferrari) into an even >> > smaller arc, which results in jerky steering in any title where a tight >> > turning radius is required (GPL: Monaco [or all tracks if you like tight >> > steering as I do], RC 2000, etc., etc.) >> > I re-read Eagle Woman's assessment of wheels again and I think, as >usual, >> > she has hit the nail on the head. She describes the belt-based ACT Labs >> > wheel and how it's built-in/inherent friction masks the subtle forces in >> > titles like GPL. The Ferrari wheel also uses belts and that seems to be >> > exactly what is happening. >> > The real kicker, though: I cannot find core.ini settings that work at >all. >> > My starting point is to replicate the strength of forces that my Saitek >R4 >> > FFB wheel produced when it was set to 50% in the control panel. I used >a >> > torque setting of 255 in the core.ini and got strong, but certainly not >> > overwhelming forces (I prefer that). The Saitek (MS-based) wheel would >> get >> > a bit notchy and clumsy of you cranked up the forces too high. >> > I have the Ferrari set to 100% forces in its control panel and I have to >> > adjust the torque in the core.ini to 70 to match the same level of FFB >> that >> > I had with the Saitek!!!!!! This will give people an indication of just >> how >> > weak the FFB on this wheel really is. (I also noticed on Allison's site >> > that someone from ACT Labs sets their wheel to 70 torque, too). >> > When the wheel is producing a decent amount of force, it oscillates >wildly >> > in GPL when you make the slightest attempt to turn. I have tried no >> > damping, medium damping, high damping, no latency, medium latency and >high >> > latency. No matter what settings I choose, I get wild oscillating. The >> > only way to eliminate the oscillation is to turn down (adjust >numerically >> > upward) the torque setting until there is a complete lack of subtle FFB >in >> > GPL. Then, you can control the oscillation. >> > I am begging people who are GPL and Ferrari wheel users to tell me that >> your >> > wheel doesn't do this!! If you are using lower torque settings, are you >> > feeling any subtle FFB? Have you ever used a good wheel to know what >you >> > are missing? Can you get your wheel to operate "normally" (forget >> > subtleties, just without wild oscillating) at a setting of 70 for >torque? >> > Unfortunately, I know of no other titles that allow for the direct >> > manipulation of FFB the way GPL does. I get weak FFB compared to my >> > previous wheel in every title even though I have FFB set at 100% with >this >> > wheel instead of 50% with the Saitek. At 100%, and with the FFB set at >> 100% >> > in Rally Championship, the Saitek would have vibrated itself loose from >my >> > desk just from the idle shake programmed into that game. With the >> Ferrari, >> > you can barely detect that there is an idle shake present. In N3/NL, if >> you >> > turn off the centring spring, you feel almost nothing that could be >> > described as FFB. Two wheels in a row...everyone (including Guillemot >> tech. >> > support) told me I must have a defective wheel, so I exchanged it. >> > Identical lack of FFB with the second wheel (the later release). >> > Help me out here with information folks, please. PLEASE!!! >> > The thought of those Logitech pedals and losing my real shifter is >giving >> me >> > the shakes :) >> > Marc. >> > -- >**************************************************************************** >> > Marc Collins >> > [email hidden] >> > Computers will never equal humans until they make mistakes and >> > blame them on other computers. >****************************************************************************You can order it from any place that deals with items distributed by Merisel
(which is just about every chain store and small computer city in the
region).
I have not yet seen it on a store shelf, but if I had waited for that, I
would never have got my previous wheel (Saitek R4 FFB), either.
I feel badly because Merisel recommended a small guy (Computronics on
College Street near U of T) who has now had to eat the cost of taking my
first defective wheel back and may now get stuck returning a second one. I
would love him to get the business, but because of the reliability concerns,
it is probably better for him if you order it from your neighbourhood
Business Depot :)
Marc.
"B" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
some
> >of us are on a budget, too. The Ferrari wheel is only $179 Canadian (that's
> >about $110 U.S.).
> >If you can combine the high resolution pedals of the Ferrari (and make them
to
> >her comments because she pays attention to the damping and latency and
> >torque settings as well as the control panel settings for the wheel. Do you
> >think it's possible that there is that much variation between units?? That
> >Allison thinks the ACT Labs is dead feeling and you think it rocks
> >(literally). I think the Ferrari is dead feeling, but others have said
> >theirs are fine?? And Allison and I are NOT interested in super-strong
> >forces, just the subtle ones. It seems backwards and the only explanation
> >is that one set of people are crazy or there really are dramatically
> >different feeling wheels that are on the surface the same models... What do
and
leave
> >> it on 100% in RC2K things start to fall off the desk (seriously). Of
> >> course..... the AL F-RS is cursed with pedals that are perhaps even worse
> >> than the Logi, particularly when using it with the likes of GPL, etc.
> >> I guess the guys at Guillemot were right in grabbing the Ferrari
> >> association...... it apparently is suckering a LOT of people into what has
> >> to be deemed a PATHETIC wheel technically.
> >> Don't worry..... all is not lost in this. We (PDPI) are making a wheel for
> >> y'all and rest assured we know ALL the things you want, and we know ALL
> >the
> >> shortcomings of the others.
> >> We have just signed-up George Sandman as another Beta tester (he's the guy
> >> who laps you 3 times in a Race), and we are confident that we have
> >gathered
> >> the most Neurotically Picky Experts available today (you might recognize a
> >> few from TV if I told all the names).
> >> It's coming Marc..... it just takes a bit of time to design perfection is
their
> >> > bloody FFB wheel?!?!?!?! It would solve the problem of looking for an
> >> > adequate wheel dead stop. No one would have to look further.
> >> > On that note, I am still struggling with my 2nd Ferrari wheel, which is
> >a
> >> > bit better than the first, but still has virtually no FFB in N3/NL, weak
> >> FFB
> >> > in every other title, and lacks subtle FFB in every title. In addition,
> >> the
> >> > second wheel has 15 - 20 degrees of the wheel's turning radius at both
> >> ends
> >> > of the spectrum inexplicably cut-off: a giant physical dead zone at both
> >> > ends of the wheel. This scrunches the already marginal resolution of
> >the
> >> > wheel (it's no higher than the brake pedal on the Ferrari) into an even
> >> > smaller arc, which results in jerky steering in any title where a tight
> >> > turning radius is required (GPL: Monaco [or all tracks if you like tight
> >> > steering as I do], RC 2000, etc., etc.)
> >> > I re-read Eagle Woman's assessment of wheels again and I think, as
> >usual,
> >> > she has hit the nail on the head. She describes the belt-based ACT Labs
> >> > wheel and how it's built-in/inherent friction masks the subtle forces in
> >> > titles like GPL. The Ferrari wheel also uses belts and that seems to be
> >> > exactly what is happening.
> >> > The real kicker, though: I cannot find core.ini settings that work at
> >all.
> >> > My starting point is to replicate the strength of forces that my Saitek
> >R4
> >> > FFB wheel produced when it was set to 50% in the control panel. I used
> >a
> >> > torque setting of 255 in the core.ini and got strong, but certainly not
> >> > overwhelming forces (I prefer that). The Saitek (MS-based) wheel would
> >> get
> >> > a bit notchy and clumsy of you cranked up the forces too high.
> >> > I have the Ferrari set to 100% forces in its control panel and I have to
> >> > adjust the torque in the core.ini to 70 to match the same level of FFB
> >> that
> >> > I had with the Saitek!!!!!! This will give people an indication of just
> >> how
> >> > weak the FFB on this wheel really is. (I also noticed on Allison's site
The
> >> > only way to eliminate the oscillation is to turn down (adjust
> >numerically
> >> > upward) the torque setting until there is a complete lack of subtle FFB
> >in
> >> > GPL. Then, you can control the oscillation.
> >> > I am begging people who are GPL and Ferrari wheel users to tell me that
> >> your
> >> > wheel doesn't do this!! If you are using lower torque settings, are you
at
> >> 100%
> >> > in Rally Championship, the Saitek would have vibrated itself loose from
> >my
> >> > desk just from the idle shake programmed into that game. With the
> >> Ferrari,
> >> > you can barely detect that there is an idle shake present. In N3/NL, if
> >> you
> >> > turn off the centring spring, you feel almost nothing that could be
> >> > described as FFB. Two wheels in a row...everyone (including Guillemot
*
*
Quoted text (11 lines)
> Where'd you get the wheel for $179 Canadian? I paid the $129USD for > mine from their website! is there a store in Toronto that you got it > from? > Canadians can get paid to surf! > https://www.alladvantage.com/joinsecure.asp?refid=ALW803 > On Fri, 21 Jan 2000 14:40:15 GMT, "Marc Collins" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > >Any idea when???? This sounds very exciting. Of course, remember thatQuoted text (13 lines)
> >more comfortable with a good slide-resistant base) with subtle but strong > >feedback and decent resolution of the Logi (or the ACT Labs as you claim) > >and put on a real shifter (I love the Ferrari's--very strong) and decent > >paddles and have software as competently designed as the Logi profiler, > >you'll certainly get my sale. > >The analogue paddles that are redundant pedals are a bit strange in my > >books. We have already heard that they work well for people with leg > >disabilities, but I rather doubt that's what Guillemot had in mind. They > >must be fairly expensive to include and I have no idea who would use them > >(other than the aforementioned). > >On the matter of Allison and the ACT Labs, I specifically pay attentionQuoted text (9 lines)
> >you think? > >Marc. > >"Shumi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:hvTh4.18420$[email hidden]... > >> It's the wheel Marc. They are all pathetically weak (G-Ferr). > >> I noticed that you brought up Allison's assessment of the AL Force-RS,Quoted text (9 lines)
> >> I'm not entirely sure what she got (maybe a defective wheel herself). I > >have > >> the Force-RS and I notice every fleck of shale on the road, and all > >tremors > >> from 500 miles away (Obviously I'm being facetious). I think perhaps > >Allison > >> had her dampening or overall forces set too high..... I turned my > >dampening > >> and overall forces down to 70% and it's beautiful. In fact..... if IQuoted text (11 lines)
> >> all :) > >> Cheers, > >> Jason "Shumi" Murray > >> Director of Marketing & Business Development > >> PDPI > >> Marc Collins <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >> news:MDRh4.299$[email hidden]... > >> > God, why can't Logitech just add decent peddles and a shifter toQuoted text (8 lines)
> >> > that someone from ACT Labs sets their wheel to 70 torque, too). > >> > When the wheel is producing a decent amount of force, it oscillates > >wildly > >> > in GPL when you make the slightest attempt to turn. I have tried no > >> > damping, medium damping, high damping, no latency, medium latency and > >high > >> > latency. No matter what settings I choose, I get wild oscillating.Quoted text (11 lines)
> >> > feeling any subtle FFB? Have you ever used a good wheel to know what > >you > >> > are missing? Can you get your wheel to operate "normally" (forget > >> > subtleties, just without wild oscillating) at a setting of 70 for > >torque? > >> > Unfortunately, I know of no other titles that allow for the direct > >> > manipulation of FFB the way GPL does. I get weak FFB compared to my > >> > previous wheel in every title even though I have FFB set at 100% with > >this > >> > wheel instead of 50% with the Saitek. At 100%, and with the FFB setQuoted text (16 lines)
> >> tech. > >> > support) told me I must have a defective wheel, so I exchanged it. > >> > Identical lack of FFB with the second wheel (the later release). > >> > Help me out here with information folks, please. PLEASE!!! > >> > The thought of those Logitech pedals and losing my real shifter is > >giving > >> me > >> > the shakes :) > >> > Marc. > >> > -- >***************************************************************************Quoted text (7 lines)
> >> > Marc Collins > >> > [email hidden] > >> > Computers will never equal humans until they make mistakes and > >> > blame them on other computers. >***************************************************************************OK Mats,
Now I am really confused...
I looked again at your settings and thought, what the hell, I will try
putting the Spring Gain to 0% and assume that you did not make a typo. Now
I have more FFB!!!! Am I insane? How does reducing the Spring Gain from
100% to 0% INCREASE the FFB?????
Guillemot tech. support told me to make sure I set everything to 100%, as it
is when you load the drivers. I knew then that they were clueless, as the
damping gain has to be turned down if you want anything other than a limp
noodle in your hands. But completely shutting off the spring gain???? I
hope you can explain this one to me!!!!
Marc.
Quoted text (80 lines)
> I've had a Ferrari wheel for about 10 days now, and even though > it is far from perfect, it seems mine is quite different from yours. > I have no complaints at all about the strength of the FF. > The first week I used max torq 500 in GPL, now I'm using 250. > With 500 the strong forces are very noticeable, but I don't have > to use brute force to turn the wheel. With 250 some tracks are > getting close to being a decent workout (e.g. Texas from the > N3 demo). I have tried a few laps with the N3 demo also, and the > FF is strong enough there also (i.e. stronger would make it quite > hard to drive). > My top complaint is that the wheel is notchy. The strong (imo) > FF seems to come from a motor that have been choosen more by > power than by smothness. The notchiness have two bad effects, > the first being that it hides subtle forces (and even rather > strong forces when the wheel is stationary), the second being > that for me it ruins the immersion effect since I really don't > beleive that real GP cars feels like there is gravel in the > steering rack. > My second complaint is that the resolution of the wheel is to > low (around 100, it outputs ~0-1000 in steps of 10). With the > notches in the wheel fine control hard anyway, so this isn't > as noticeable as you would guess from the numbers (my old > wheel with a precision potentiometer makes the PDPI resolution > of 256 quite noticeable). > I propose the following as a FF dynamic resolution test that > will tell more about how much information a wheel is capable > of sending to the driver than the force available: > - start IForce studio and setup the periodic (sinus) force > - set the frequency to 10 Hz and the time to infinite > - check that the max force setting is not clipping, i.e. > that a value below max (10000) really feels weaker than > the max > test 1, stationary: > - hands off the wheel > - start with a peek force setting somewhere in the middle > and decrease it in small steps until the wheel stops moving > - the result is the max value divided by the value when the > wheel stops moving > test 2, moving: > - the same as test 1 but while moving the wheel > - the result is the max value divided by the value when you > can't feel the forces anymore > With my Ferrari wheel, the test 1 result is ~2500 (of 10000) > giving a factor 4 dynamic range which I is quite bad imo. > The test 2 result is ~750 (of 10000) giving a factor ~13 > dynamic range which is more reasonable. What this means in > practice with the Ferrari wheel is that you have to move > it around to feel the weaker forces. > It would be interresting to now what results others get on > this test, especially with the Logitech FF wheel. > _ > Mats Lofkvist > My current configuration: > IForce > Overall 100% > Spring 0% > Damping 25% > GPL > max torq 250 > delay 0.025 > damping 5 > In GPL I have the steering hack turned off (i.e. no decreased > turning radius at lower speeds) and use a steering ratio of > 12 on most tracks (18 at Texas). The linearity slider is > at its leftmost position (i.e. full linearity).Quoted text (16 lines)
> OK Mats, > Now I am really confused... > I looked again at your settings and thought, what the hell, I will try > putting the Spring Gain to 0% and assume that you did not make a typo. Now > I have more FFB!!!! Am I insane? How does reducing the Spring Gain from > 100% to 0% INCREASE the FFB????? > Guillemot tech. support told me to make sure I set everything to 100%, as it > is when you load the drivers. I knew then that they were clueless, as the > damping gain has to be turned down if you want anything other than a limp > noodle in your hands. But completely shutting off the spring gain???? I > hope you can explain this one to me!!!! > Marc.Quoted text (9 lines)
> OK Mats, > I tried the IForce Studio test: > My results were 1900 for test 1 and 400 for test 2...the opposite of what I > expected given that your wheel apparently has a lot more force output than > mine. Perhaps I am misunderstanding the results, but I am also wondering > will control panel settings affect this test or does it read the wheel > "directly"?Turning the spring force down, and copying all the rest of your settings
(control panel and GPL .ini) has worked a miracle. I now have respectable
FFB in GPL without resorting to cranking the torque up to 70. This is a
complete mystery to me. The oscillation problem is 99% cured (there is
always some risk of oscillation in GPL, I think...at least I remember a few
occasions with the Saitek where this happened).
Miracle #2...I now have "normal" levels of force in N3 and NL. BUT!!!!!!!!!
Now there is wild oscillation in those!!!! I can't believe this... I will
now go play with the force and damping tweaks for N3. The damping number is
supposed to be designed to reduce or eliminate oscillation...so at least
there is an adjustment I can try.
I will now also have to go re-try other titles to see if the FFB levels are
dramatically increased. I already tried RC 2000 and it is somewhat
different than before, but definitely not noticeably stronger. This is so
weird....
Marc.
> > OK Mats,
> > Now I am really confused...
> > I looked again at your settings and thought, what the hell, I will try
> > putting the Spring Gain to 0% and assume that you did not make a typo. Now
> > I have more FFB!!!! Am I insane? How does reducing the Spring Gain from
> > 100% to 0% INCREASE the FFB?????
> > Guillemot tech. support told me to make sure I set everything to 100%, as it
> > is when you load the drivers. I knew then that they were clueless, as the
> > damping gain has to be turned down if you want anything other than a limp
> > noodle in your hands. But completely shutting off the spring gain???? I
Quoted text (19 lines)
> > hope you can explain this one to me!!!! > > Marc. > GPL doesn't seem to use the spring force at all, so turning it down > _shouldn't_ make any difference. The reason I turned it down was > because I had problems with the wheel suddenly adding spurious > spring forces, e.g. a pull to the right when the wheel was turned > to the right. To get rid of these spurious forces I had to quit > the training session in GPL completely and start over, neither > car reset or back to the pits helped. These problems _seems_ to > have dissappeared when I turned the spring force down. > The behaviour of your wheel indicates that you have a similar problem, > i.e. that there is a bug in the driver, the wheel itself or in GPL > that makes spring force a bad thing. > _ > Mats LofkvistIf it helps that is exactly what I have been getting with this wheel. At
first I thought I must have damaged the suspension - but it kept happening
after I knew I hadn't hit anything (honest!). If you turn right the wheel
would "take over" and turn full right where it would stay!
I put it down to a driver bug - thanks for the advice to turn down the
spring gain :)
Tony
This has to be a glaring driver bug of monumental proportions. The Spring
Gain seems to be reversed on the control panel!?!?!?!?...at 100% you get the
minimum real gain (maybe about 5%) and if you shut it off (0%), you get the
maximum forces (or gain). Looks like these wheels and drivers were tested
real good before they were released...............
Marc.
Quoted text (104 lines)
> Let me put this into perspective. > We (PDPI) were originally going to stay out of the controller market as > manufacturers, and simply supply our expertise in the interface dept. as a > B->B (business to business) company (in the form of licensing). As we have > done so far in a matter of speaking with the L4. > We demonstrated to all (ALL of them), and they were very surprised with our > accomplishments. However, when the fact that it would cost them literally > $1.80 per unit more (after cost of chip and licensing were calculated) was > presented... they all pretty much had the same answer... "We don't think > that the users will notice the difference in resolution and other > features... so we cannot justify the increase in price...". Furthermore... > they don't seem to think that you particularly notice ANY of the > shortcomings, and with a bit of marketing they could overcome it (leave you >***). > So... realistically there is a potential for someone to mass produce a > controller that meets the needs of the consumer in the form of quality. WE > are who aspire to do such. ECCI and TSW are among our friends since they are > the ONLY people who saw our technology and said "that is the ONLY USB > implementation we would consider using since we are quality oriented." I > have a very good relationship with these guys, and I have ZERO reservations > in referring their products (they make a great product and are consumer > oriented in the end). > I sincerely wish that those who are champions of the other controller > manufacturers, had sit in on one of these meetings I had with them to see > just how oblivious they are to your needs. I am not saying this as a > competitor (since I have no product to compare... yet...), but rather as a > Sim Racer who walked away thoroughly disgusted with the attitude. "I" am the > guy who moved PDPI into the controller market, "I" am the guy who went out > and raised the capital to enable this cause, "I" am the guy who wants an > affordable controller of quality, and "I" am the guy who will make DAMN SURE > that it is possible. Don't classify me as a marter... I am just like you... > a guy who wants more, and has seen that it can be achieved at an affordable > price. So shoot me for being a Sim fan who wants more, and has been put in a > position to make a difference in the hobby I just ruined by making it my job > (and dropping 3 profitable businesses to accomplish this cause in your > request.) I don't want your simpathy, and I don't want your encouragement... > I just want a wheel that I can call "perfect" in every aspect including > price! It CAN BE DONE, and WILL BE DONE. > Everyone can curse me for being vague at this point, and others can curse me > for putting down the rest. In the end... I am simply holding the others > accountable for attrocious oversights and even worse results. I, or should I > say "we" are on YOUR SIDE. WE want a better controller (in all genres), and > have worked our ass off to make it happen. > Curse us now... you'll love us soon... I am confident of this. > BTW... come May... I'll put our achievements against the rest at E3, and we > "expect" controller of the year hands down. The others simply aren't even > CLOSE to us in interface technology, but then this isn't big news... we have > been carrying them for a while now in the analog side. Just wait until you > see what we have done for USB :))))))))))) > Cheers, > Shumi > P.S. Not directed at any particular reply..... just a general reply to the > thread that seems to have caused some controversy regarding my presence and > demand of accountability from the other controller manufacturers. >> My only point was that it is easy to design a top-notch product (we're not >> talking rocket science with FFB steering controllers) if price point is > not >> an issue. Since it is an issue for 99% of the purchasers out there, it >> should be considered. The issue was addressed satisfactorily in the reply > to >> my post, though. >> Marc. >>>> Any idea when???? This sounds very exciting. Of course, remember that >> some >>>> of us are on a budget, too. The Ferrari wheel is only $179 Canadian >> (that's >>>> about $110 U.S.). >>> ECCI recieved my business because they didn't compromise, regardless of >> price. >>> Although I would like to buy a FF wheel, there isn't anyone in the > market >> right >>> now who hasn't compromised, and really, isn't that what all the >> complaints >>> are about ? Ask for the best, but don't ask for it cheap, we've already >> got to >>> many examples of that. >>> -- >>> Don Scurlock >>> Vancouver,B.C.0% spring gain works great for GPL (which seems to use its own settings &
the Guillemot driver just confuses it if set above 0).
0% spring gain gives no resistance for RC2000 - 100% gives full force.
My conclusion is RC2000 is using the windows settings, GPL its own core.ini
settings
Despite these quirks I love the wheel - although I have not tried a
Logitech. The quirks just add realism to the Italian car badge - but then I
drive a 91 Alfa :)
Tony
> This has to be a glaring driver bug of monumental proportions. The Spring
> Gain seems to be reversed on the control panel!?!?!?!?...at 100% you get the
> minimum real gain (maybe about 5%) and if you shut it off (0%), you get the
problem,
> > > > i.e. that there is a bug in the driver, the wheel itself or in GPL
> > > > that makes spring force a bad thing.
> > If it helps that is exactly what I have been getting with this wheel. At
> > first I thought I must have damaged the suspension - but it kept happening
> > after I knew I hadn't hit anything (honest!). If you turn right the wheel
> > would "take over" and turn full right where it would stay!
> > I put it down to a driver bug - thanks for the advice to turn down the
> > spring gain :)
> > Tony
Quoted text (9 lines)
> maximum forces (or gain). Looks like these wheels and drivers were tested > real good before they were released............... > Marc. > > > > The behaviour of your wheel indicates that you have a similarPrecision wise.... the Logi is among the top two available right now in USB.
Lots of people like it (my opinion of the wheel is irrelevant outside of
technical merits), and the only beef many have are that the pedals are too
weak in the springs, and some like a more forward motion in pressing them
(which Logi's sink down into the base).
I would have to say that the Logi is probably your best bet currently.
However, I must also make note of the Act Labs F-RS (which is now
distributing directly in Europe), but then that wheel's pedals also have
some issues with them as well (travel is short and sticky).
Cheers,
Jason "Shumi" Murray
PDPI
> > Let me put this into perspective.
> > We (PDPI) were originally going to stay out of the controller market as
> > manufacturers, and simply supply our expertise in the interface dept. as a
> > B->B (business to business) company (in the form of licensing). As we have
> > done so far in a matter of speaking with the L4.
> > We demonstrated to all (ALL of them), and they were very surprised with our
> > accomplishments. However, when the fact that it would cost them literally
> > $1.80 per unit more (after cost of chip and licensing were calculated) was
> > presented... they all pretty much had the same answer... "We don't think
> > that the users will notice the difference in resolution and other
> > features... so we cannot justify the increase in price...". Furthermore...
> > they don't seem to think that you particularly notice ANY of the
> > shortcomings, and with a bit of marketing they could overcome it (leave you
> >***).
> > So... realistically there is a potential for someone to mass produce a
> > controller that meets the needs of the consumer in the form of quality. WE
> > are who aspire to do such. ECCI and TSW are among our friends since they are
> > the ONLY people who saw our technology and said "that is the ONLY USB
> > implementation we would consider using since we are quality oriented." I
> > have a very good relationship with these guys, and I have ZERO reservations
> > in referring their products (they make a great product and are consumer
> > oriented in the end).
> > I sincerely wish that those who are champions of the other controller
> > manufacturers, had sit in on one of these meetings I had with them to see
> > just how oblivious they are to your needs. I am not saying this as a
> > competitor (since I have no product to compare... yet...), but rather as a
> > Sim Racer who walked away thoroughly disgusted with the attitude. "I" am the
> > guy who moved PDPI into the controller market, "I" am the guy who went out
> > and raised the capital to enable this cause, "I" am the guy who wants an
> > affordable controller of quality, and "I" am the guy who will make DAMN SURE
> > that it is possible. Don't classify me as a marter... I am just like you...
> > a guy who wants more, and has seen that it can be achieved at an affordable
> > price. So shoot me for being a Sim fan who wants more, and has been put in a
> > position to make a difference in the hobby I just ruined by making it my job
> > (and dropping 3 profitable businesses to accomplish this cause in your
> > request.) I don't want your simpathy, and I don't want your encouragement...
> > I just want a wheel that I can call "perfect" in every aspect including
> > price! It CAN BE DONE, and WILL BE DONE.
> > Everyone can curse me for being vague at this point, and others can curse me
> > for putting down the rest. In the end... I am simply holding the others
> > accountable for attrocious oversights and even worse results. I, or should I
> > say "we" are on YOUR SIDE. WE want a better controller (in all genres), and
> > have worked our ass off to make it happen.
> > Curse us now... you'll love us soon... I am confident of this.
> > BTW... come May... I'll put our achievements against the rest at E3, and we
> > "expect" controller of the year hands down. The others simply aren't even
> > CLOSE to us in interface technology, but then this isn't big news... we have
> > been carrying them for a while now in the analog side. Just wait until you
the
> > thread that seems to have caused some controversy regarding my presence and
> > demand of accountability from the other controller manufacturers.
> >> My only point was that it is easy to design a top-notch product (we're not
> >> talking rocket science with FFB steering controllers) if price point is
> > not
> >> an issue. Since it is an issue for 99% of the purchasers out there, it
> >> should be considered. The issue was addressed satisfactorily in the reply
that
> >> some
> >>>> of us are on a budget, too. The Ferrari wheel is only $179 Canadian
> >> (that's
> >>>> about $110 U.S.).
> >>> ECCI recieved my business because they didn't compromise, regardless of
already
thats
Quoted text (7 lines)
> > see what we have done for USB :))))))))))) > > Cheers, > > Shumi > > P.S. Not directed at any particular reply..... just a general reply toQuoted text (12 lines)
> > to > >> my post, though. > >> Marc. > >>>> Any idea when???? This sounds very exciting. Of course, rememberQuoted text (7 lines)
> >> price. > >>> Although I would like to buy a FF wheel, there isn't anyone in the > > market > >> right > >>> now who hasn't compromised, and really, isn't that what all the > >> complaints > >>> are about ? Ask for the best, but don't ask for it cheap, we'veQuoted text (10 lines)
> >> got to > >>> many examples of that. > >>> -- > >>> Don Scurlock > >>> Vancouver,B.C. > Okay herr(mr) Shumi, > I am a guy who lives in the Netherlands. And if I lived in America I could > possible order a TSW steering wheel. But with the tax & shipment costsQuoted text (7 lines)
> added. This is over my budget of buying such a steering wheel (I've got to > eat to). So the best I could afford is the Logitech FF. And I'm curious > what's your opinion on that wheel? And did You talk to those guys? > Greetings > Olaf
Shumi <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:M7ei4.20826$[email hidden]...
> Let me put this into perspective.
making it my job
> (and dropping 3 profitable businesses to accomplish this cause in your
> request.) I don't want your simpathy, and I don't want yourencouragement...
> I just want a wheel that I can call "perfect" in every aspect including
> price! It CAN BE DONE, and WILL BE DONE.
>
> Everyone can curse me for being vague at this point, and others can curseme
> for putting down the rest. In the end... I am simply holding the others
> accountable for attrocious oversights and even worse results. I, or shouldI
> say "we" are on YOUR SIDE. WE want a better controller (in all genres),and
> have worked our ass off to make it happen.
>
> Curse us now... you'll love us soon... I am confident of this.
>
> BTW... come May... I'll put our achievements against the rest at E3, andwe
> "expect" controller of the year hands down. The others simply aren't even
> CLOSE to us in interface technology, but then this isn't big news... wehave
> been carrying them for a while now in the analog side. Just wait until you
> see what we have done for USB :)))))))))))
>
> Cheers,
>
> Shumi
I purchased a MSFF wheel when the 1st patch came out for gpl with FF. I
was simply amazed. I wasn't then,nor am I now convinced that the MSFF is the
perfect wheel. It wasn't even my 1st choice, but it was readily available
locally,so that if there were any problems I could return it without the
hassels of postage,shipping, and the long waiting times for my credit. As
it turned out, I did have to return one wheel, and got a replacement that
very day. My plan was simply expect the MSFF wheel to last me a year or two
until the next generation of FF wheels come out. And that's exactly what is
transpiring now. If you FF wheel is as you say, then rest assured you have a
ready customer here.
Joel Willstein
[email hidden]
