Geez, I'm slow at Spa...

Using Spygirl, I compared my fastest lap(3:31) with a replay from R. Prydden(3:15). Some glaring differences - numbers are slowest corner speed in mph Prydden me 180 137 Masta 128 118 Stavelot 175 146 Right hander before La Carriere 141 100 La Carriere 136 116 Blanchimont 168 142 Left hander before La Source Just on these 6 turns, I'm an average of 28.1 mph slower, following what looks like the same line. Here's the bad part - as slow as I am, I'm *already* barely*** on to the car. This seems like an insurmountable task. I need help, BADLY. Eldred - who now has new windmill to tilt at... -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

I feel yer pain... I almost did a back flip when I finally got a 3:29.something and I was driving WAY over my head to do it.... I know it's there, but I ain't quite found it - having a blast looking tho'

Once I did a 3.24 something I put everything as soft as I could (rollbar, dampers...) anbd the car as low as possible without it touching the ground on braking.... It was with the ferrari adn the best part was to ba able to pass the fast left right chicane in the middle of the straight ALMOST flat, coming out of it at about 285 Kmh... Spa is the best rack though in the entire game, all the people here seem to try only monza but spa really kicks ass

You're slow........?????????? Jeez... I may as well be drivin a double-decker bus with a ***ed up engine, four flat tyres and coloured pink. Still, if you're wanting some advice......... idav

Wow... Prydden is really cranking, then. I discovered something just a few nites ago that might help. In fact, it takes much of the "e***ment" out of Spa for me (and some of the other tracks, too!); I'm still re-learning the limits from this simple change. The trick now, it seems, is to actually get some ground clearance. Static ride height is up to 3.25" in the rear; a little lower in front, with 1" bump ***s all around. The last little bit of e***ment left is at Masta, where I still seem to bottom out at the little dip after the turn-in for the right hander. (Not sure though; this always caused me problems.) Springs and ARB are absolutely as stiff as can be, but I had to back off one of the bars 10 lbs, I think in the rear. More interestingly, Nurburgring responded very, very well to this change. It is an altogether different track when you're not riding the stops around the corners. I went back to the default setup and simply raised the car up a bit. The difference in grip is night and day. You'll notice it everywhere on the track even if you didn't think you were having difficulty. (And BTW, pink is absolutely the worst color for buses, cars, or helmets. :-) As for other advice, you might already know this about Masta, but it caused me much grief until I caught on. The track dips in the transition area leading to the right hander. You need to have already turned in and be on the gas before you get there. As for the other turns, I don't know them by name. Generally, smooth transitions and balance are the key to speed at Spa, more so, it seems, than some other tracks. Michael.

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> You're slow........?????????? > Jeez... > I may as well be drivin a double-decker bus with a ***ed up engine, four > flat tyres and coloured pink. > Still, if you're wanting some advice......... > idav > > Using Spygirl, I compared my fastest lap(3:31) with a replay from R. > > Prydden(3:15). Some glaring differences - numbers are slowest corner > speed in > > mph > > Prydden me > > 180 137 Masta > > 128 118 Stavelot > > 175 146 Right hander before La Carriere > > 141 100 La Carriere > > 136 116 Blanchimont > > 168 142 Left hander before La Source > > Just on these 6 turns, I'm an average of 28.1 mph slower, following what > looks > > like the same line. Here's the bad part - as slow as I am, I'm

*already* > > barely*** on to the car. This seems like an insurmountable task. I > need > > help, BADLY.

Eldred, I suggest you go to Ricardo Nunnini's site (http://website.lineone.net/~richardn/ and devour everything on it, especially the setup section. There's nothing like a nice drivable setup to allow you to really push the car to the limit. BTW thanks a lot for the servers. You're really helping to keep GPL alive.

Eldred, also try the new GPL report utility, and compare you driving lines to those of the fast guys. I learned a lot from doing that! (IE I learned that I was driving the wrong lines :) Andre On Mon, 24 Jan 2000 18:20:36 -0500, "Jim Allison"

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>Eldred, >I suggest you go to Ricardo Nunnini's site >(http://website.lineone.net/~richardn/) and >devour everything on it, especially the setup section. There's nothing like >a nice >drivable setup to allow you to really push the car to the limit. >BTW thanks a lot for the servers. You're really helping to keep GPL alive.

Eldred, Have you checked out Russell Hodgson's track guides at Lights Out Racing? I found them extremely helpful and easy to follow (though at times overwhelming in their detail). Martin Long Live Nigel Mansell!

When I start working on a track I concentrate on making sure I'm near the optimum line at corners that are less than 90 deg. Just a couple feet from using all the track each way can reduce the speeds you can attain by a very large amount. > Using Spygirl, I compared my fastest lap(3:31) with a replay from R. > Prydden(3:15). Some glaring differences - numbers are slowest corner speed in > mph These: I'm at the point where I can beat the AI through those corners so much faster that it's an accident waiting to happen unless I time it right. (Which excercise is enteresting just by itself.) Now I can go on and figure out how to go through Masta more insanely and carry more speed through Burnenville ;) -- Matthew V. Jessick Motorsims Vehicle Dynamics Engineer (972)910-8866 Ext.125, Fax: (972)910-8216

> Spa is the best rack though in the entire game, all the people here > seem to try only monza but spa really kicks ass I agree, but I think its hurt my skill improvement beyond a certain point. It teaches driving at high speed balancing the car on the edge. But for me at least, a track like Mosport seemingly requires entirely different skills I don't have from practicing Spa. Things like really exact lines. At Spa you are so fast so close to the bushes that I don't drive too near the edge for safety. So I have some wiggle room that I tend to use to adjust when the turn in isn't perfect, etc. That kind of mind set doesn't help my times at Mosport where I expect if I had better car/trajectory control in these slower corners I might eventually be halfway decent. I'd like to know what the minimum number of tracks and which would make you a well rounded GPL driver, because I don't have time, or patience (frustration resistence ;) to learn them all. -- Matthew V. Jessick Motorsims Vehicle Dynamics Engineer (972)910-8866 Ext.125, Fax: (972)910-8216

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> I'd like to know what the minimum number of tracks and which > would make you a well rounded GPL driver, because I don't have > time, or patience (frustration resistence ;) to learn them all. > -- > Matthew V. Jessick Motorsims > Vehicle Dynamics Engineer (972)910-8866 Ext.125, Fax: (972)910-8216

I believe that Rouen has a very nice combination of fast and slow corners and a few really tricky points like the left turn before the hairpin, so it might be a good place to learn most of the basics. To get a grip on throttle steering (no pun intended) and a sense of the rhythm on the track, Zandvoort might be the best with its combinations of long sweepers. I like Mosport in order to get a feel of the varying levels of grip when going over crests and dips while turning and/or braking. And my setup nightmare - Kyalami, where you constantly have to fight understeer in tighting corners and some strange cambers while correcting oversteer in others. A good place to learn setup effects. These would be my chioces. Greetings, Gregor

I think you should just drive them all. I haven't turned down an open-track event (real cars) simply because I didn't know or like the track. Driving the limit is driving the limit, wherever you find yourself, and no matter what the conditions. Rain, shine, or snow; it doesn't matter much. I just enjoy thrashing the car around. I agree with you about games, though. In a game, you're racing against the track record, or the other guy's qual time. The goal becomes not simply beating your own best, but to *be* the best. GPL makes it possible to enjoy driving for the sake of driving; maybe this shouldn't be lost in your rush to set a new record. You'll have to come back to basics sooner or later anyway, well before you start your climb to the top. Michael. > > I'd like to know what the minimum number of tracks and which > > would make you a well rounded GPL driver, because I don't have > > time, or patience (frustration resistence ;) to learn them all.

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>Masta: the fast left-right that you don't even notice on a track map, about >6.5 klicks from the start-finish. There's a definite, but slight, bowl-like >dip between turn-in and apex on the right-hander. It's difficult to see from >the replays, but it's enough to unload the rears if you're not on line. If >you lose it and catch it, you're on the wire fence on the outside. If you >lose it and spin, you go off the inside, to the right. If you lose it and >save it, you were too slow. Sound familiar? >

Very... :) I usually lose it into the wire fence...

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>Anyway, it's not too difficult if you take the left-hand well. You're toast >if you turn-in too soon and clip the inside; chances are you're too fast to >catch it in time to balance and turn-in for the leftie. The speed and early >apex forces you too close to the rail to turn in, with no room left to take >it off line. You're toast. For us meer mortals who must lift to get through >Masta, the trick is to balance early and get some weight on the rears before >the little dip trips you up ever so briefly. Taken well, you wonder what all >the excitement is about. :-) And then it reminds you the next time you're >off line just a hair. Masta is about driving the line, not just speed >control.

So, instead of neutral throttle(or coasting) through both turns, you hit the gas in *between* the two to load the rear of the car?!? My balls aren't that big yet... :) But, what the hell. If I crash, it's only cost me 3 1/2 minutes, not my LIFE... Sims are great!

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>Oh, I see it now, on the game's track map. Look closely in the replays, and >you'll see a shallow bowl in the track surface at the apex there. You can >take advantage of slightly better turning inside the bowl, somewhat like a >very small Karrusel (ala Nurburgring). Turn in faster, earlier, and wider >than you might think, aiming almost wide of an earlier apex. The bowl will >catch you, signalling the gas-on point, and you can turn in just a hair more >to hit the real apex, or just hold it as you moosh on the gas. The bowl >spits you out, unwinding and drifting nicely to the track edge, throttle >already full down in high third gear.

Never noticed that. I'll have to look *closer* at the replays... >Gas-on for the third and final right hander is before the >stone bridge, well before you clip what looks like the apex, but not too >soon. You'll know you hit it well, or got too slow, when the gas goes down >early and stays down. Your shift-up point will tell you which it was. I usually don't get back on the gas hard until AFTER the bridge. I'm not in the right spot on the track, methinks. Thanks, Michael! I'll be down to 3:15 by...2005...MAYBE<g> Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

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>I feel yer pain... I almost did a back flip when I finally got a >3:29.something and I was driving WAY over my head to do it.... I know it's >there, but I ain't quite found it - having a blast looking tho' >> Using Spygirl, I compared my fastest lap(3:31) with a replay from R. >> Prydden(3:15). Some glaring differences - numbers are slowest corner >speed in >> mph >> Prydden me >> 180 137 Masta >> 128 118 Stavelot >> 175 146 Right hander before La Carriere >> 141 100 La Carriere >> 136 116 Blanchimont >> 168 142 Left hander before La Source

After MANY more laps of practice in the Cooper (league car), I can run a 3:31 now. My previous 3:31 was with the Ferarri, so that's probably worth a couple more seconds. I can now get thru Masta at ~150 fairly consistently. Can't get anywhere CLOSE to that 180...<whew!> Stavelot *still* screws me up... More practice is needed... :) Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

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>You're slow........?????????? >Jeez... >I may as well be drivin a double-decker bus with a ***ed up engine, four >flat tyres and coloured pink. >Still, if you're wanting some advice......... >idav

Idav, if you could figure out how to drive that bus in GLP, I'd probably *pay* to see it...<g> Wanna race? Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

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>Eldred, >I suggest you go to Ricardo Nunnini's site >(http://website.lineone.net/~richardn/) and >devour everything on it, especially the setup section. There's nothing like >a nice >drivable setup to allow you to really push the car to the limit.

Yes, there's a WEALTH of info, *if* you can understand it all. When I originally tried the site, I was trying to improve at Monza, WG, and Silverstone. I gotta find my printout from Spa... What did he say? Drive the track without BRAKES???? Yeah, RIGHT. :) Thanks for the compliment. I'm not sure how long it will last, though. The servers are at work, and I'm looking for another job. No room for advancement in the current one... :( Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

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>As for other advice, you might already know this about Masta, but it caused >me much grief until I caught on. The track dips in the transition area >leading to the right hander. You need to have already turned in and be on >the gas before you get there. As for the other turns, I don't know them by >name. Generally, smooth transitions and balance are the key to speed at Spa, >more so, it seems, than some other tracks. >Michael.

Masta, or Malmedy? Malmedy is the one with the greater elevation change, and the flaggs on the right. I know there IS a drop at Masta, but I don't think THAT'S what's giving me problems. I'll have to check that again, thanks. Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

writes: Thanks! I'll check it... -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Masta: the fast left-right that you don't even notice on a track map, about 6.5 klicks from the start-finish. There's a definite, but slight, bowl-like dip between turn-in and apex on the right-hander. It's difficult to see from the replays, but it's enough to unload the rears if you're not on line. If you lose it and catch it, you're on the wire fence on the outside. If you lose it and spin, you go off the inside, to the right. If you lose it and save it, you were too slow. Sound familiar? Anyway, it's not too difficult if you take the left-hand well. You're toast if you turn-in too soon and clip the inside; chances are you're too fast to catch it in time to balance and turn-in for the leftie. The speed and early apex forces you too close to the rail to turn in, with no room left to take it off line. You're toast. For us meer mortals who must lift to get through Masta, the trick is to balance early and get some weight on the rears before the little dip trips you up ever so briefly. Taken well, you wonder what all the e***ment is about. :-) And then it reminds you the next time you're off line just a hair. Masta is about driving the line, not just speed control. For the geographically disinclined (like me), the verbal description in Smith's bible translates to: Eau Rouge: at the bottom below the start-finish and going back uphill. Haute de la Cote: the left hand semi- hairpin at the hilltop. Burnenville: the left-left sweepers. Malmedy: uphill left, downhill right-left-right Masta: my grave marker lies in the field beyond the left hander. Stavelot: the right-right-right sweeper. Cottage: faster of the two right-handers. Quarry: the second right hander. (Maybe versa vice on Cottage and Quarry). Blanchimont: left, left, right, left La Source: the hairpin. Overall, it's funny how speed telescopes distances so you don't recognize the track map. :-) I don't know what you mean by La Carriere... it translates to "the career", and 100 mph is too slow for any curve that comes to mind. The Cottage and Quarry right handers almost match, but 100 is way slow for the second one. Oh, I see it now, on the game's track map. Look closely in the replays, and you'll see a shallow bowl in the track surface at the apex there. You can take advantage of slightly better turning inside the bowl, somewhat like a very small Karrusel (ala Nurburgring). Turn in faster, earlier, and wider than you might think, aiming almost wide of an earlier apex. The bowl will catch you, signalling the gas-on point, and you can turn in just a hair more to hit the real apex, or just hold it as you moosh on the gas. The bowl spits you out, unwinding and drifting nicely to the track edge, throttle already full down in high third gear. The preceding right hander is a compromise corner coming off the second left hand kink past Stavelot. I drag the brakes a touch, almost enough to drop into fourth, but not quite. Prydden's speed says he's lifting the gas some before mashing back down; I don't know how he does that. A textbook late apex allowing for the slight crown gets me through OK. Blanchimont's first left is not as tight as it looks. Late apex, and watch the road crown on exit. A textbook late apex and drift to track-out puts you in the dirt and up the berm. Hold toward the inside until late through the exit, taking advantage of the high crown. Again, Prydden's 136 mph here is almost super-human. His exit from Blanchimont's final left at 168 mph says he's flat out all the way through. I clip the dirt on the inside, but still have to breathe the gas on entry to stay off the rail on exit. There are some dips and crowning at the exit, going uphill, that I haven't examined yet; the key to this one probably lies there as well. Just watch the AI cars squirmthrough that exit. My line here is wider than theirs, but at least they're not gaining. Last, easiest, and perhaps most important (aside from Masta): the key to Stavelot is to not push too hard too early. Otherwise, you find yourself fighting to get back to the inside, inevitably lifting or at least delaying gas-on. From entry to exit, keep enough throttle to hold the rears from unloading as you let the engine slow you through the decreasing radius turns; no brakes. Gas-on for the third and final right hander is before the stone bridge, well before you clip what looks like the apex, but not too soon. You'll know you hit it well, or got too slow, when the gas goes down early and stays down. Your shift-up point will tell you which it was. Hope that helps, and it sure would be nice if I could do all that on every lap. Good luck. Michael.

Come to think of it, it wasn't obvious at all before FF. Quarry was pretty much a ***shoot then, even knowing about the little depression at the apex. Sometimes I would make it, and other times I wouldn't, and I never understood why. With FF, you'll feel it load up strongly and then release again. Michael.

Believe it or not, I "turned the corner" to starting to learn at Silverstone. Until I pulled out on it, I was still completely overwhelmed by the power and response of the cars, and just had no idea what to do with it. I started completing laps at Silverstone and started understanding the nature of the beast, and afterwards I could make laps at other tracks that previously I had just gone from one off to the next. Silverstone is a nice place to learn drifting skills and turn speed limits. Zaandvoort is good for rythym Monaco is good for bursting your bubble when you think you're getting good <G> Mosport is a nice place to hone your look ahead and setting up turns (love that damn track - first laps on it were in that monster BRM - had a blast...) I don't know what Mexico is good for - seems like it could some day be fun... Spa (mmmmm, Spaaa) is good for adrenaline rushes Monza - good for learning close high speed traffic - and some soiled undies <G> As for a minimum - one track - Nurburgring - absolutely everything.... tight corners, fast corners, elevation changes (Flugplatz! <G>) hairy assed top end runs, sudden changes from high speed to hard braking.....

<snip> % I don't know what Mexico is good for - seems like it could some day be % fun... <snip> Purely for technical skills...... This is a pure "technic" track. Put everything together you have learned at every other track into one driving package. In some ways, many portions of Mexico are very similar to Silverstone. I start my basica Mexico setups from working Silverstone setups. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

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>Come to think of it, it wasn't obvious at all before FF. Quarry was pretty >much a ***shoot then, even knowing about the little depression at the >apex. Sometimes I would make it, and other times I wouldn't, and I never >understood why. With FF, you'll feel it load up strongly and then release >again. >Michael.

Well that's it, then. I don't have FF... Oh well. On the up side, I'm down to 3:28.xx(once). Can't seem to do it again... Eldred -- Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999 Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

On that note, have you seen the Spa track notes? There's a package with a Word doc file plus several replays. There was a link to it at www.theuspits.com. I'm ill from listening to them dicker over milliseconds around 3:13. :-) The "dips" I mentioned might be nothing more than crossing the road crown. I'm not really sure now after going back to watch the weight transitions frame by frame. Michael. EldredP <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Oh well. On the up side, I'm down to 3:28.xx(once). Can't seem to do it > again...