What is the best wheel?

I'm thinking of a Momo steering wheel is this a good choice? But what happen if i don't like the force feedback? What is the feeling without it? Thanks Johnny

On Tue, 02 Sep 2003 02:34:41 GMT, "Johnny" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I'm thinking of a Momo steering wheel is this a good choice? But what happen >if i don't like the force feedback? What is the feeling without it? >I am no expert in these things, and haven't tried the top end Momo, but I have the cheaper Momo Racing wheel and am very happy with it. I used to have a cheap wheel and the Momo allows much tighter control and the FF is excellent. You can adjust the level of FF effects in games or via the control panel, so you can tone them down. It takes away a lot of immersion for a game is you disable the FF. -- Andrew

"Johnny" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:5lT4b.12213$[email hidden]... > I'm thinking of a Momo steering wheel is this a good choice? But whathappen

Quoted text (7 lines)

> if i don't like the force feedback? What is the feeling without it? > > Thanks > > Johnny > >

You'll get a ton of replies telling you that FF is the only way to fly. Personally, I tried it for a while with a LWFF and didn't really care for it. About the time the Momo's came out a year or two ago I was at a crossroads as I didn't like the LWFF with or without the FF so I went with a non-FF wheel, from Thomas. Best move I ever made. I can drive a lot smoother with it and am not constantly fighting the phoney feeling forces found in the FF effects today. Even with the FF turned back a little it was still phoney feeling to me, but then again I have done some high performance driving and know what is in the game/wheel, is not really what you feel out on the road. I decided that no feel was better than fake feel and took real-smoothness over psuedo-realism in order to take my online driving to the next level, and it worked. I'd recommend a Thomas wheel if you can swing it. You'll see that FF is not required to do well and really isn't required to get any more enjoyment out of the sim.

"SimRacer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:wL25b.42601$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (17 lines)

> > "Johnny" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:5lT4b.12213$[email hidden]... > > I'm thinking of a Momo steering wheel is this a good choice? But what > happen > > if i don't like the force feedback? What is the feeling without it? > > > > Thanks > > > > Johnny > > > > > > You'll get a ton of replies telling you that FF is the only way to fly. > Personally, I tried it for a while with a LWFF and didn't really care for > it. About the time the Momo's came out a year or two ago I was at a > crossroads as I didn't like the LWFF with or without the FF so I went with

a > non-FF wheel, from Thomas. Best move I ever made. I can drive a lotsmoother > with it and am not constantly fighting the phoney feeling forces found in > the FF effects today. Even with the FF turned back a little it was still > phoney feeling to me, but then again I have done some high performance > driving and know what is in the game/wheel, is not really what you feelout > on the road. > > I decided that no feel was better than fake feel and took real-smoothness > over psuedo-realism in order to take my online driving to the next level, > and it worked. I'd recommend a Thomas wheel if you can swing it. You'llsee > that FF is not required to do well and really isn't required to get anymore > enjoyment out of the sim. > >I really couldn't have put it better myself. I've yet to drive a sim with ff turned on and experience a realistic feeling of the steering becoming very light during understeer. OK so it bangs and rattles over bumps, but apart from that gives little or no real information about front end grip. I guess that's why programmers put in very loud tyre squeal when slip angles are getting high - to let us know audibly as well as visibly that we're losing grip. btw lfs is the ONLY driving sim Tin hats on!

> I'm thinking of a Momo steering wheel is this a good choice? Yes I think the momo is a good FF wheel > But what happen if i don't like the force feedback? > What is the feeling without it? Pretty horrid IMHO and makes a lot of noise. Personally I don't like FF. It has never conveyed the seat of the pants feel for me, but it seems to work for some. I find it an artifical feeling as if the computer is driving for me. Don't tell the wife though cos she bought me the Momo as a present :) Maybe my brain has been trained over the years to use graphics and audio in sim racing so that FF is something new for me to get used to (old dogs new tricks yeh yeh) but it doesn't add a "wow this feels like a real car" feeling. Though my recollection of competitive driving was in an old Avenger... Cheers Tony --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 19/08/2003

On Tue, 02 Sep 2003 02:34:41 GMT, "Johnny" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (7 lines)

>I'm thinking of a Momo steering wheel is this a good choice? But what happen >if i don't like the force feedback? What is the feeling without it? > > Thanks > > Johnny >

If you don't like the FFB effects then you can still use it fine so long as the return to centre tension remains on. I play Nascar with a MS FFB wheel and turn off FFB in the game but still get a really nice solid feeling wheel.

Tony Rickard wrote:

Quoted text (10 lines)

> > Personally I don't like FF. It has never conveyed the seat of the pants > feel for me, but it seems to work for some. I find it an artifical feeling > as if the computer is driving for me. Don't tell the wife though cos she > bought me the Momo as a present :) > > Maybe my brain has been trained over the years to use graphics and audio in > sim racing so that FF is something new for me to get used to (old dogs new > tricks yeh yeh) but it doesn't add a "wow this feels like a real car" > feeling.

So I'm not the only one :-) > Though my recollection of competitive driving was in an old Avenger... ROFL, and not even a GT ? Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

"Goy Larsen" wrote: > > Though my recollection of competitive driving was in an old Avenger... > > ROFL, and not even a GT ? 1500 GLS - we were dead posh...same 75 bhp (wow!) engine as the GT but four doors. Sadly it died one night when my navigator borrowed it and drove it into a ditch :( --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 19/08/2003

To those of you who hat FF, I beg to say that you never set it up correctly in the 1st place. if you have return to center turned on, then it emulated the centering force of those wheels without FF, which I can no longer stand LOL. In NR2003, LFS, NetKar, Everything I have used it on, I have my "joy/wheel profiler in the control panel with FF at low, no return to center. in games such mentioned above if return to center is on, then it overrides the camber castor effects of steering, all you feel then is "bumps" but in NR02-03, GPL & NetKar I feel as wheels are off the ground, or have reached and surpassed thier grip limit, or that a slide has began, because the wheel now is clear to show resistance in coming back to center, like it would just as a real car... MS FF wheels are neat IMHO. I havent gotten to see the momo in action, but once properly setup and supported by the games, there is no going back. MS FF with FF turned off was my orignal intention as I hated the centering spring (mechanical) in the NON FF versions. "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9T75b.860$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (7 lines)

> "Goy Larsen" wrote: > > > > Though my recollection of competitive driving was in an old Avenger... > > > > ROFL, and not even a GT ? > > 1500 GLS - we were dead posh...same 75 bhp (wow!) engine as the GT but

four

Quoted text (10 lines)

> doors. Sadly it died one night when my navigator borrowed it and drove it > into a ditch :( > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 19/08/2003 > >

Oh, we set it up just fine, we just know that that is NOT how a car feels on a track, or even on a road for that matter. You have it backwards, if you like FF, you've never actually pushed a machine as hard as we do in the sim. Else you would think it was more gimmick than susbtance too. "Sting32" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > To those of you who hat FF, I beg to say that you never set it upcorrectly > in the 1st place. if you have return to center turned on, then itemulated > the centering force of those wheels without FF, which I can no longerstand > LOL. > > In NR2003, LFS, NetKar, Everything I have used it on, I have my "joy/wheel > profiler in the control panel with FF at low, no return to center. ingames > such mentioned above if return to center is on, then it overrides thecamber > castor effects of steering, all you feel then is "bumps" but in NR02-03, > GPL & NetKar I feel as wheels are off the ground, or have reached and > surpassed thier grip limit, or that a slide has began, because the wheelnow > is clear to show resistance in coming back to center, like it would justas > a real car... > > MS FF wheels are neat IMHO. I havent gotten to see the momo in action,but

Quoted text (12 lines)

> once properly setup and supported by the games, there is no going back. > > MS FF with FF turned off was my orignal intention as I hated the centering > spring (mechanical) in the NON FF versions. > > > > "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:9T75b.860$[email hidden]... > > "Goy Larsen" wrote: > > > > > > Though my recollection of competitive driving was in an old

Avenger... > > > > > > ROFL, and not even a GT ? > > > > 1500 GLS - we were dead posh...same 75 bhp (wow!) engine as the GT but > four > > doors. Sadly it died one night when my navigator borrowed it and droveit

Quoted text (11 lines)

> > into a ditch :( > > > > > > --- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 19/08/2003 > > > > > >

"Sting32" wrote: > To those of you who hat FF, I beg to say that you never set it upcorrectly > in the 1st place. if you have return to center turned on, then itemulated > the centering force of those wheels without FF, which I can no longerstand > LOL. Believe me I have tried more settings and spent more time fiddling with two FF wheels than I would care to add up before deciding it wasn't for me. It really is a personal preference thing which is why it is so hard to advise. Perhaps for someone with less experience of non FF coming into it they would find it more natural. Cheers Tony --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 19/08/2003

"SimRacer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:wu85b.67260$[email hidden]... > Oh, we set it up just fine, we just know that that is NOT how a car feelson > a track, or even on a road for that matter. You have it backwards, if you > like FF, you've never actually pushed a machine as hard as we do in thesim. > Else you would think it was more gimmick than susbtance too. I don't think it's a gimmick, I find it a useful aid. Can you give some sort of indication of just how hard you have 'pushed it'? I have a BRD wheel as well as a Momo Force. I'm just about as fast with the BRD wheel, but I find it's easier to drive with FF, and that means I'm less likely to make a mistake. Malc. GPLRank -51.9

"Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:jA85b.915$[email hidden]... > Believe me I have tried more settings and spent more time fiddling withtwo > FF wheels than I would care to add up before deciding it wasn't for me. > > It really is a personal preference thing which is why it is so hard to > advise. Perhaps for someone with less experience of non FF coming into it > they would find it more natural. I had pretty much the same experience with the original red Logitech, the only FF wheel I've sampled (w/GPL, Viper Racing, & Nascar Heat at the time). Tried ALL the settings various folks said were best, along with lots of my own variations. I did appreciate the information the FF was trying to convey, but it never stopped feeling like a computer peripheral to me, and that reduced the immersion factor of "driving". I went back to my tried and true, a modified 270 degree-lock non FF original Logitech with stouter springs. Bloody thing works your arms out, but it does keep you from sawing at the wheel like a maniac. ;-) And it's transparent; I never think about something it's doing and wonder what that's supposed to be. Actually, the only time I ever made it flat through Masta in GPL was when I was trying out a joystick/pedal setup, since you could make lock-to-lock corrections almost instantaneously. But I really don't care if my laps are quicker or not; that wasn't realistic and I just want to get "into" driving. Anything that reduces the immersion for me is a no-go. I can imagine better modeling of tire grip and particularly wear might well make FF a truly needful thing in the near future (if not already, arguably). But for now it remains personal preference for me - and I prefer no, thanks. SB

> I really couldn't have put it better myself. I've yet to drive a sim withff > turned on and experience a realistic feeling of the steering becoming very > light during understeer. OK so it bangs and rattles over bumps, but apart > from that gives little or no real information about front end grip. Iguess When was the last time you tried FF? Steering effort definitely changes with tire grip in both F1C and NR2003. In both, you can feel the front end wash out, and IMHO, F1C out of the box is much better than F12002 with respect to shaking over bumps in that it isn't as exagerrated. NR2003 also has pretty good FF. I can actually feel the loss of grip as the tires wear in that the steering effort noticably drops off, and running over curbs at Watkins Glen results in a subtle but detectable change, not banging and rattling. I don't find either game to be anywhere near the ridiculous sawing found in the arcades, and when I turn off FF, I feel disconnected from what's taking place on the screen. Granted, I don't think it's possible for current FF wheels to fully simulate the real thing. For one, we probably need the ability to take the user's input into consideration when determining forces, but it's certainly good enough to increase the immersion factor. Besides, I don't think anyone really believes any of these games(!) are even close to the real experience. Anyway, as they say, to each his own. Alan

> > I really couldn't have put it better myself. I've yet to drive a simwith > ff > > turned on and experience a realistic feeling of the steering becomingvery > > light during understeer. OK so it bangs and rattles over bumps, butapart > > from that gives little or no real information about front end grip. I > guess > > When was the last time you tried FF? Steering effort definitely changes > with tire grip in both F1C and NR2003. In both, you can feel the frontend > wash out, and IMHO, F1C out of the box is much better than F12002 with > respect to shaking over bumps in that it isn't as exagerrated. NR2003also > has pretty good FF. I can actually feel the loss of grip as the tireswear > in that the steering effort noticably drops off, and running over curbs at > Watkins Glen results in a subtle but detectable change, not banging and > rattling. > > I don't find either game to be anywhere near the ridiculous sawing foundin > the arcades, and when I turn off FF, I feel disconnected from what'staking > place on the screen. Granted, I don't think it's possible for current FF > wheels to fully simulate the real thing. For one, we probably need the > ability to take the user's input into consideration when determiningforces, > but it's certainly good enough to increase the immersion factor. Besides,I > don't think anyone really believes any of these games(!) are even close to > the real experience. Anyway, as they say, to each his own. I'd have to agree with that. F1C, N2003 & Netkar each feel more drivable with FF than without it to me. I'm still not sure whether I prefer it on or off in GPL. I used to always turn it off until someone gave me some config tips which allowed me to actually feel the front-end grip while right-foot steering. I still get the occasional spike in GPL which can ruin an online race for me so I have to have the FF strength turned down quite a bit to cope with it. For what it's worth, my times are slightly quicker with FF turned on in GPL even though overall I'd say it feels a bit 'fake'

Tony Rickard wrote:

Quoted text (10 lines)

> > "Goy Larsen" wrote: > > > > Though my recollection of competitive driving was in an old Avenger... > > > > ROFL, and not even a GT ? > > 1500 GLS - we were dead posh...same 75 bhp (wow!) engine as the GT but four > doors. Sadly it died one night when my navigator borrowed it and drove it > into a ditch :(

Ah....you had the "sleeper" version I see :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

"Goy Larsen" wrote: > > > > Though my recollection of competitive driving was in an oldAvenger... > > > > > > ROFL, and not even a GT ? > > > > 1500 GLS - we were dead posh...same 75 bhp (wow!) engine as the GT butfour > > doors. Sadly it died one night when my navigator borrowed it and droveit > > into a ditch :( > > Ah....you had the "sleeper" version I see :-) I now I am going to regret this cos I will look stoopid, but you've lost me there! --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 19/08/2003

Tony Rickard wrote: > > I now I am going to regret this cos I will look stoopid, but you've lost me > there! Q-car ? If the GT and the GLS had the same engine, then the GLS would be a Q-car version of the GT wouldn't it ? In reality it was probably a sheep in sheep's clothing, but "sleeper" and "Q-car" sounds much cooler Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

"Goy Larsen" wrote: > > I now I am going to regret this cos I will look stoopid, but you'velost me

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > there! > > Q-car ? > > If the GT and the GLS had the same engine, then the GLS would be a Q-car > version of the GT wouldn't it ? > > In reality it was probably a sheep in sheep's clothing, but "sleeper" > and "Q-car" sounds much cooler

I see! I have never heard the term "sleeper" before. I don't think it was ever a Q-car !! The lack of grip more than compensated for the lack of power :) Cheers Tony --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 19/08/2003

Tony Rickard wrote: > > I see! I have never heard the term "sleeper" before. I don't think it was > ever a Q-car !! I guess it's an American term, over here we tend to follow them for some strange reason.... > The lack of grip more than compensated for the lack of power :) Makes sense to me, the important bit is having fun Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy "goyl at nettx dot no" http://www.theuspits.com "A man is only as old as the woman he feels........" --Groucho Marx--

I actually _don't_ like FF in Nascar Games (love it in GPL), but there's really no choice. The pull-to-the-left phenomena (sp?) makes it very difficult to use a non-FF wheel, or even worse a FF wheel with FF turned off. -Larry "SimRacer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:wL25b.42601$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (17 lines)

> > "Johnny" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:5lT4b.12213$[email hidden]... > > I'm thinking of a Momo steering wheel is this a good choice? But what > happen > > if i don't like the force feedback? What is the feeling without it? > > > > Thanks > > > > Johnny > > > > > > You'll get a ton of replies telling you that FF is the only way to fly. > Personally, I tried it for a while with a LWFF and didn't really care for > it. About the time the Momo's came out a year or two ago I was at a > crossroads as I didn't like the LWFF with or without the FF so I went with

a > non-FF wheel, from Thomas. Best move I ever made. I can drive a lotsmoother > with it and am not constantly fighting the phoney feeling forces found in > the FF effects today. Even with the FF turned back a little it was still > phoney feeling to me, but then again I have done some high performance > driving and know what is in the game/wheel, is not really what you feelout > on the road. > > I decided that no feel was better than fake feel and took real-smoothness > over psuedo-realism in order to take my online driving to the next level, > and it worked. I'd recommend a Thomas wheel if you can swing it. You'llsee > that FF is not required to do well and really isn't required to get anymore > enjoyment out of the sim. > >