Nascar 2003: Game Aides Vs No Aides....

In the NASCAR 2003 game there are 3 options lately that seem to be causing some fuss. They are Traction Control, Stability Control, and Steering Assistance and the game explicitly says: "The more experienced driver will be able to corner more efficiently with this option turned off" What that means to me is better drivers will get faster speeds, And when you turn on these options you cant go as fast! That seems to be the problem. Lately Papyrus, some people drivers (KK, DW, TH) and notable beta testers are saying this isn't the case. I dont think so! But Im only one person. There doesn't seem to be many "experienced drivers" that can achieve speed with these turned off. Maybe this is true, maybe we just dont have enough experienced drivers. Im sure the guys in VRW Cup group arent using these aides and they seem plenty fast to me, if not the very fastest on the net. KK seems unbeatable at VRW and he's not using aides so what is all the fuss. If this was so with the caliber of drivers surely one of them would have turned on the aides and beat KK. All go on further to say that using these in league play shouldn't be allowed. Although there is no way of detection as its not part of results or disabled in the game. The honor system doesnt work 100%. I have tested the aides on and off. I have found that my corners speeds are at least 2 mph higher in the corners on the tracks I tested. Now if its determined that these aides aren't fair or right. Than papyrus can eliminate them as selections in the hardcore mode in the next patch. This might eliminate some people from playing the game with any control devices, but that's the brakes. To me it doesn't matter, but traction control should be eliminated! Matter of fact some unnamed Nascar champions have been warned that using traction control "Ignition Systems" will not be allowed anymore.. "Wink Wink". I believe this issue is a lot about nothing. With the quality of designers and beta testers at Papyrus they surely have tested this extensively, otherwise they would of never said.. "The more experienced driver will be able to corner more efficiently with this option turned off" Don Wilshe 888 588 9207

I don't know, it seems a certain "Sport Allen" beat King once huh? LOL. "Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:EVGea.17935$[email hidden]... In the NASCAR 2003 game there are 3 options lately that seem to be causing some fuss. They are Traction Control, Stability Control, and Steering Assistance and the game explicitly says: "The more experienced driver will be able to corner more efficiently with this option turned off" What that means to me is better drivers will get faster speeds, And when you turn on these options you cant go as fast! That seems to be the problem. Lately Papyrus, some people drivers (KK, DW, TH) and notable beta testers are saying this isn't the case. I dont think so! But Im only one person. There doesn't seem to be many "experienced drivers" that can achieve speed with these turned off. Maybe this is true, maybe we just dont have enough experienced drivers. Im sure the guys in VRW Cup group arent using these aides and they seem plenty fast to me, if not the very fastest on the net. KK seems unbeatable at VRW and he's not using aides so what is all the fuss. If this was so with the caliber of drivers surely one of them would have turned on the aides and beat KK. All go on further to say that using these in league play shouldn't be allowed. Although there is no way of detection as its not part of results or disabled in the game. The honor system doesnt work 100%. I have tested the aides on and off. I have found that my corners speeds are at least 2 mph higher in the corners on the tracks I tested. Now if its determined that these aides aren't fair or right. Than papyrus can eliminate them as selections in the hardcore mode in the next patch. This might eliminate some people from playing the game with any control devices, but that's the brakes. To me it doesn't matter, but traction control should be eliminated! Matter of fact some unnamed Nascar champions have been warned that using traction control "Ignition Systems" will not be allowed anymore.. "Wink Wink". I believe this issue is a lot about nothing. With the quality of designers and beta testers at Papyrus they surely have tested this extensively, otherwise they would of never said.. "The more experienced driver will be able to corner more efficiently with this option turned off" Don Wilshe 888 588 9207

The point of the "cheats" is that they allow you to run a much looser car that will save the rf for a longer period. I have seen this online myself. I ran a Darlington where the leader was not running faster than me, he just never died, after the race he told me his rf doesn't go yellow until lap 43 which to say the least is a heck of a lot longer than mine. I came to find out that this team uses traction control. I don't know if it makes you faster, just better long. If there is no advantage then there should be no problem letting servers retrict it's use. There are much more vile cheats out there with which you are very aware that will shape what 2k3 will be all about. Chad "Chad Rogers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:cALea.166260$F1.6459@sccrnsc04... I don't know, it seems a certain "Sport Allen" beat King once huh? LOL. "Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:EVGea.17935$[email hidden]... In the NASCAR 2003 game there are 3 options lately that seem to be causing some fuss. They are Traction Control, Stability Control, and Steering Assistance and the game explicitly says: "The more experienced driver will be able to corner more efficiently with this option turned off" What that means to me is better drivers will get faster speeds, And when you turn on these options you cant go as fast! That seems to be the problem. Lately Papyrus, some people drivers (KK, DW, TH) and notable beta testers are saying this isn't the case. I dont think so! But Im only one person. There doesn't seem to be many "experienced drivers" that can achieve speed with these turned off. Maybe this is true, maybe we just dont have enough experienced drivers. Im sure the guys in VRW Cup group arent using these aides and they seem plenty fast to me, if not the very fastest on the net. KK seems unbeatable at VRW and he's not using aides so what is all the fuss. If this was so with the caliber of drivers surely one of them would have turned on the aides and beat KK. All go on further to say that using these in league play shouldn't be allowed. Although there is no way of detection as its not part of results or disabled in the game. The honor system doesnt work 100%. I have tested the aides on and off. I have found that my corners speeds are at least 2 mph higher in the corners on the tracks I tested. Now if its determined that these aides aren't fair or right. Than papyrus can eliminate them as selections in the hardcore mode in the next patch. This might eliminate some people from playing the game with any control devices, but that's the brakes. To me it doesn't matter, but traction control should be eliminated! Matter of fact some unnamed Nascar champions have been warned that using traction control "Ignition Systems" will not be allowed anymore.. "Wink Wink". I believe this issue is a lot about nothing. With the quality of designers and beta testers at Papyrus they surely have tested this extensively, otherwise they would of never said.. "The more experienced driver will be able to corner more efficiently with this option turned off" Don Wilshe 888 588 9207

Now I used to have a problem with RF yellows.. until i started to design all my setups with 1650 Forward weight and move the weights forward until i have even RIGHT SIDE tire wear. 46 laps... heck Im still GREEN on all 4 after 57 laps.. Tire management is criticall.. don "Chad Rogers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:HILea.166345$F1.6552@sccrnsc04... The point of the "cheats" is that they allow you to run a much looser car that will save the rf for a longer period. I have seen this online myself. I ran a Darlington where the leader was not running faster than me, he just never died, after the race he told me his rf doesn't go yellow until lap 43 which to say the least is a heck of a lot longer than mine. I came to find out that this team uses traction control. I don't know if it makes you faster, just better long. If there is no advantage then there should be no problem letting servers retrict it's use. There are much more vile cheats out there with which you are very aware that will shape what 2k3 will be all about. Chad

I own a TSW wheel with a troublesome dead spot off center which I have had since the day I bought it a year ago. Recently I called TSW tech support and was told to set it up with 10-20% steering assistance and 100% linearity. The dead spot is gone now and I can finally enjoy my racing for the first time in a year since I bought it! I don't think it should be considered cheating If TSW recommends using steering assistance as part of wheel calibration. I guess then that I won't participate in any of the so called "experienced" leagues who want to ban this important calibration adjustment. Not a big loss for them.... or for me either.... ;-)

Actually that steering assistance isn't what most people are up in arms about, it's the check box in the stability control. I really don't know what that 0-100 steering assistance does. "4-X-CHAMP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:b5gfdb$naf$[email hidden]... > I own a TSW wheel with a troublesome dead spot off center which I have hadsince the day I bought it a year ago. > Recently I called TSW tech support and was told to set it up with 10-20%steering assistance and 100% linearity. > The dead spot is gone now and I can finally enjoy my racing for the firsttime in a year since I bought it! > I don't think it should be considered cheating If TSW recommends usingsteering assistance as part of wheel calibration. > I guess then that I won't participate in any of the so called"experienced" leagues who want to ban this important calibration > adjustment. > Not a big loss for them.... or for me either.... ;-) > >

Using aids to gain an UNFAIR advantage is pure chickenshit. So because person a can beat you, you have to relagate to turn on aids to keep up? Why not PRACTICE and get better? And I'm plenty beatable in VRW, as the stats show.

Oh yes and that's VERY realistic isn't it? Especially since we were told using around 1830 Front Weight would be used. "Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:rhMea.21392$[email hidden]... Now I used to have a problem with RF yellows.. until i started to design all my setups with 1650 Forward weight and move the weights forward until i have even RIGHT SIDE tire wear. 46 laps... heck Im still GREEN on all 4 after 57 laps.. Tire management is criticall.. don "Chad Rogers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:HILea.166345$F1.6552@sccrnsc04... The point of the "cheats" is that they allow you to run a much looser car that will save the rf for a longer period. I have seen this online myself. I ran a Darlington where the leader was not running faster than me, he just never died, after the race he told me his rf doesn't go yellow until lap 43 which to say the least is a heck of a lot longer than mine. I came to find out that this team uses traction control. I don't know if it makes you faster, just better long. If there is no advantage then there should be no problem letting servers retrict it's use. There are much more vile cheats out there with which you are very aware that will shape what 2k3 will be all about. Chad

"Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:EVGea.17935$[email hidden]... In the NASCAR 2003 game there are 3 options lately that seem to be causing some fuss. <SNIP Don's Nice Post> While I agree that the options should slow drivers down, it's not exactly fair to do so. Take myself for example. My wheel is out of commission, so I'm stuck with using a joystick to race. I'm not sure if you've ever driven NR2002 (can't speak for 2003 in this aspect, aside from the demo) with a joystick, but the game forces you to have Anti-Lock Brakes and Traction Control on (If someone has a method for turning these off, I'd like to hear it :). I'd like to strangle the person who gave clearance for the idea. I'm the sort of driver who, depending on my mood, likes to drive into the corners hard. When you get knocked into the grass and sideways, or into a 180, you can't turn the car back around until it's in the range of 20 MPH. Another way it slows me down is when I over drive a corner and some AI knocks me out of control...my car is stuck at 45 degrees until I hold opposite lock for however long (usually a few seconds) to regain control. I do not like this. Papy, I want full control of my car for offline racing (at least). Braking is a general pain in the ass with a joystick, too. I /always/ overshoot my pit box by at least a few feet because the brakes didn't want to lock up. With a wheel, I had no such problem. In fact, I would rather have the option to turn these two on and off. Also a new braking system would be nice. I want to lock up my brakes after I hold down the designated brake key for so long. Do I think people should be using these options (and the ones you listed) for a intentional gain in performance? No. Yet, the ultimate responsibility lies with the programmers (and/or management). Just the act of forcing some of these options on are going to cause problems between players. You can call me (and countless others) a cheater because Papy is forcing me to have two options on. But to do it right, they would have to.... *gasp*.... filter the race list based on un/accepted assists. Because, and you can't ignore this, they rightfully paid for their copy. It's only fair they get to play the game with however many assists on that they want...or are comfortable with. If the assists make them /faster/ than the hardcore drivers, then blame Papy. For some online drivers, they like to knowingly cheat. For others, not. They're just not skilled enough to have assists off. IMO, to correct this problem, Papy needs to address the situation with a patch. --- "To me it doesn't matter, but traction control should be eliminated! Matter of fact some unnamed Nascar champions have been warned that using traction control "Ignition Systems" will not be allowed anymore.. "Wink Wink"." --- Yes, Don, I agree with you 110%!! Make it a option for offline drivers, keep it off for online drivers (or whatever the community deems best - See above reference to race list filtering ;). I'm sick and tired of it, too. . .. ... .... ..... /Food For Thought Mode On But then again, why shouldn't people with assists on be allowed to race competatively with those without? ;-) -Will

I would like to believe I am a true, dedicated Sim racer . I'm involved in Sim Racing because I truly love auto racing, and in my particular case, Stockcar Racing. I personally am not the least bit interested in any kind of Video Gaming and therefore hate hearing 2K3 referred to as anything other than a "SIM" ( but that is my personal opinion) This Software (N2003) gives me the opportunity to experience my sport through the use of a Very Good Computer simulation made possible by the talented people at Papy. The LAST thing I'm going to do is cheapen that experience by using any kind of driving aid that Papy has added to SELL the software to people who need that sort of help. The solution to this ongoing debate is simple...... Separate the "Arcade/Video Game Players" from the "Sim Racers" We've already made one step in the right direction by giving league admins. the ability to block roof-riders,... now all we need is the same ability to block "AIDS users !" I'm so disappointed it wasn't included with this (the last) build. I'm sure if we all get off our duffs with an email campaign and insist that a this type of fix is added in a patch, it will happen, or maybe one of the talented individuals who have given us all those great utilities, could also do it. Then the video game players can form their own leagues and conduct themselves in any way they like, and the true Simmers (those of us who want to experience a true racing simulation) can race on a level playing field knowing that we're all on the same page, and not having cheaters forced on us by a loophole in the software. We reap what we sew, and as long as we keep letting it happen, we will continue to be beaten by people who can't do it any other way but the "easy way ! !" I will add in closing that....... IMHO, the people who will have the loudest opposition to this post will be the very people in question. -=JL "Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:EVGea.17935$[email hidden]... In the NASCAR 2003 game there are 3 options lately that seem to be causing some fuss. They are Traction Control, Stability Control, and Steering Assistance and the game explicitly says: "The more experienced driver will be able to corner more efficiently with this option turned off" What that means to me is better drivers will get faster speeds, And when you turn on these options you cant go as fast! That seems to be the problem. Lately Papyrus, some people drivers (KK, DW, TH) and notable beta testers are saying this isn't the case. I dont think so! But Im only one person. There doesn't seem to be many "experienced drivers" that can achieve speed with these turned off. Maybe this is true, maybe we just dont have enough experienced drivers. Im sure the guys in VRW Cup group arent using these aides and they seem plenty fast to me, if not the very fastest on the net. KK seems unbeatable at VRW and he's not using aides so what is all the fuss. If this was so with the caliber of drivers surely one of them would have turned on the aides and beat KK. All go on further to say that using these in league play shouldn't be allowed. Although there is no way of detection as its not part of results or disabled in the game. The honor system doesnt work 100%. I have tested the aides on and off. I have found that my corners speeds are at least 2 mph higher in the corners on the tracks I tested. Now if its determined that these aides aren't fair or right. Than papyrus can eliminate them as selections in the hardcore mode in the next patch. This might eliminate some people from playing the game with any control devices, but that's the brakes. To me it doesn't matter, but traction control should be eliminated! Matter of fact some unnamed Nascar champions have been warned that using traction control "Ignition Systems" will not be allowed anymore.. "Wink Wink". I believe this issue is a lot about nothing. With the quality of designers and beta testers at Papyrus they surely have tested this extensively, otherwise they would of never said.. "The more experienced driver will be able to corner more efficiently with this option turned off" Don Wilshe 888 588 9207

Let me get this straight. You are blaming Don for cheating and yes I watched you do it because we have found a way to get the setups to preform better? If Papy leaves the holes then whose fault is that? I saw no rules stating that you can't alter the setups with adjustments that are provided in the setup management. If you aren't prepared to do something as basic as playing with the car weights to get better tire wear than thats your problem stick to fixed setups. By the way I'm the one who has done some of Don's setups so if you want to accuse anyone of cheating you better accuse me. Its sounds like sour grapes to me. Maybe you have over estimated your ability. Pete "Kevin King" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:cAQea.2573$[email hidden]... Oh yes and that's VERY realistic isn't it? Especially since we were told using around 1830 Front Weight would be used.

Great Setups Pete.... Thanks No the secret is out.!! Don Wilshe PS. Been getting my best setups from you now pete for what 10 years. Whats KK been racing online 5 years. Kids know everything dont they!! They get beat and than they start name calling. Adult get beat and they go to work! Thats the way it was because the new group came here 5 years ago and there are some bad apples! Don "Pete" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:jb5fa.9205$[email hidden]... Let me get this straight. You are blaming Don for cheating and yes I watched you do it because we have found a way to get the setups to preform better? If Papy leaves the holes then whose fault is that? I saw no rules stating that you can't alter the setups with adjustments that are provided in the setup management. If you aren't prepared to do something as basic as playing with the car weights to get better tire wear than thats your problem stick to fixed setups. By the way I'm the one who has done some of Don's setups so if you want to accuse anyone of cheating you better accuse me. Its sounds like sour grapes to me. Maybe you have over estimated your ability. Pete "Kevin King" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:cAQea.2573$[email hidden]... Oh yes and that's VERY realistic isn't it? Especially since we were told using around 1830 Front Weight would be used.

I guess you are unaware of Don's past? He was caught cheating on TEN. Try not to lecture me. Thanks. "Pete" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:jb5fa.9205$[email hidden]... Let me get this straight. You are blaming Don for cheating and yes I watched you do it because we have found a way to get the setups to preform better? If Papy leaves the holes then whose fault is that? I saw no rules stating that you can't alter the setups with adjustments that are provided in the setup management. If you aren't prepared to do something as basic as playing with the car weights to get better tire wear than thats your problem stick to fixed setups. By the way I'm the one who has done some of Don's setups so if you want to accuse anyone of cheating you better accuse me. Its sounds like sour grapes to me. Maybe you have over estimated your ability. Pete "Kevin King" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:cAQea.2573$[email hidden]... Oh yes and that's VERY realistic isn't it? Especially since we were told using around 1830 Front Weight would be used.

I've been racing 5 years? Wow news to me, I though I started on N1. And I guess 22 is considered a kid to you, being 60 and all. "Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Fv5fa.36094$[email hidden]... Great Setups Pete.... Thanks No the secret is out.!! Don Wilshe PS. Been getting my best setups from you now pete for what 10 years. Whats KK been racing online 5 years. Kids know everything dont they!! They get beat and than they start name calling. Adult get beat and they go to work! Thats the way it was because the new group came here 5 years ago and there are some bad apples! Don "Pete" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:jb5fa.9205$[email hidden]... Let me get this straight. You are blaming Don for cheating and yes I watched you do it because we have found a way to get the setups to preform better? If Papy leaves the holes then whose fault is that? I saw no rules stating that you can't alter the setups with adjustments that are provided in the setup management. If you aren't prepared to do something as basic as playing with the car weights to get better tire wear than thats your problem stick to fixed setups. By the way I'm the one who has done some of Don's setups so if you want to accuse anyone of cheating you better accuse me. Its sounds like sour grapes to me. Maybe you have over estimated your ability. Pete "Kevin King" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:cAQea.2573$[email hidden]... Oh yes and that's VERY realistic isn't it? Especially since we were told using around 1830 Front Weight would be used.

Oh and also, did you make that miraculous setup that allows you to flip your car at Homestead in the turns? And did you make the setup that can run in the 3rd lane up high, and pass 2 packs of cars with no draft? Did you make those? "Pete" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:jb5fa.9205$[email hidden]... Let me get this straight. You are blaming Don for cheating and yes I watched you do it because we have found a way to get the setups to preform better? If Papy leaves the holes then whose fault is that? I saw no rules stating that you can't alter the setups with adjustments that are provided in the setup management. If you aren't prepared to do something as basic as playing with the car weights to get better tire wear than thats your problem stick to fixed setups. By the way I'm the one who has done some of Don's setups so if you want to accuse anyone of cheating you better accuse me. Its sounds like sour grapes to me. Maybe you have over estimated your ability. Pete "Kevin King" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:cAQea.2573$[email hidden]... Oh yes and that's VERY realistic isn't it? Especially since we were told using around 1830 Front Weight would be used.

Mr. King.. The Master of Slander without Facts.. Same ole Kevin King! Where is your proof !!! Post it on a website.. Who ever said I was ever caught on Ten. Ten? Papyrus? No One!! Just more made up crap from Kevin King! You are right that many people were caught, but it wasnt me as I never did. If you remember there was only one person reported caught and it wasnt me.. Get your facts straight! lol don "Kevin King" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:QR5fa.58$I%2.9@fed1read02... I guess you are unaware of Don's past? He was caught cheating on TEN. Try not to lecture me. Thanks. "Pete" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:jb5fa.9205$[email hidden]... Let me get this straight. You are blaming Don for cheating and yes I watched you do it because we have found a way to get the setups to preform better? If Papy leaves the holes then whose fault is that? I saw no rules stating that you can't alter the setups with adjustments that are provided in the setup management. If you aren't prepared to do something as basic as playing with the car weights to get better tire wear than thats your problem stick to fixed setups. By the way I'm the one who has done some of Don's setups so if you want to accuse anyone of cheating you better accuse me. Its sounds like sour grapes to me. Maybe you have over estimated your ability. Pete "Kevin King" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:cAQea.2573$[email hidden]... Oh yes and that's VERY realistic isn't it? Especially since we were told using around 1830 Front Weight would be used.

lol "Kevin King" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:rS5fa.59$I%2.28@fed1read02... I've been racing 5 years? Wow news to me, I though I started on N1. And I guess 22 is considered a kid to you, being 60 and all. "Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Fv5fa.36094$[email hidden]... Great Setups Pete.... Thanks No the secret is out.!! Don Wilshe PS. Been getting my best setups from you now pete for what 10 years. Whats KK been racing online 5 years. Kids know everything dont they!! They get beat and than they start name calling. Adult get beat and they go to work! Thats the way it was because the new group came here 5 years ago and there are some bad apples! Don "Pete" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:jb5fa.9205$[email hidden]... Let me get this straight. You are blaming Don for cheating and yes I watched you do it because we have found a way to get the setups to preform better? If Papy leaves the holes then whose fault is that? I saw no rules stating that you can't alter the setups with adjustments that are provided in the setup management. If you aren't prepared to do something as basic as playing with the car weights to get better tire wear than thats your problem stick to fixed setups. By the way I'm the one who has done some of Don's setups so if you want to accuse anyone of cheating you better accuse me. Its sounds like sour grapes to me. Maybe you have over estimated your ability. Pete "Kevin King" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:cAQea.2573$[email hidden]... Oh yes and that's VERY realistic isn't it? Especially since we were told using around 1830 Front Weight would be used.

He was thats new to me! The only one on TEN accused of cheating was Robert Huggins. Perhaps you should get off your high horse and get your facts straight. Don't need to lecture, I was in the room after a Darlington race and watched you ranting like a child. Since you avoided the rest of what I posted why not tell us of the holes you and others have found and used to advantage over the last few years. Big cambers comes to mind. Like I said sour grapes. "Kevin King" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:QR5fa.58$I%2.9@fed1read02... I guess you are unaware of Don's past? He was caught cheating on TEN. Try not to lecture me. Thanks.

Don, as you know I got out of the online racing scene for a few years and only started racing online with N2002 and didn't do particularily well because of controller issues. That has now been resolved and my long time team mate Barry Clay and I have started getting semi-serious with setups. Because of my health problems I don't have the energy or the drive to get involved with too many online leagues because I can't say how I will be feeling from day to day. I have limited my racing to the Rascar group because I feel they are a good group and don't see the ego stuff. And they hopefully tolerate my driving. I have always shared my ideas and setups with friends who I feel can do a much better job of driving them I can. It amazes me that some people who have only been around a couple of years think that they are the greatest sim driver around. I look at all the great drivers who have come and gone over the years and are for many reasons no longer at it. Burnout being probably the best culprit. Not to belittle the many great drivers that are still at it but there is always somebody better. It just ticks me off to see someone get beat and then jump on the cheat bandwagon because of their deflated ego. The fact that I put many hours into figuring out how to get the car to not only run fast but to get the tires to last within the confines of the game. Log on and ask how you made out only to see a tirade thrown and then a cheer leading attempt of accusations. Pretty sad. I'm glad that you have been able to get some usuage out of the setups Barry and I have worked on. It still takes a great driver to use the tools you are given properly. Pete "Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Fv5fa.36094$[email hidden]... Great Setups Pete.... Thanks No the secret is out.!! Don Wilshe PS. Been getting my best setups from you now pete for what 10 years. Whats KK been racing online 5 years. Kids know everything dont they!! They get beat and than they start name calling. Adult get beat and they go to work! Thats the way it was because the new group came here 5 years ago and there are some bad apples! Don

More childish rants! Cars flipping in the turns, nice trick! What track are you talking of with the third lane and drafting. I can't say which tracks Don uses my setups at or not. I have also seen some unbelieveable things occur in the game over the years which I have found questionable as well but without proof Papy did nothing. "Kevin King" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:gU5fa.61$I%2.8@fed1read02... Oh and also, did you make that miraculous setup that allows you to flip your car at Homestead in the turns? And did you make the setup that can run in the 3rd lane up high, and pass 2 packs of cars with no draft? Did you make those?

So you're going to tell me you have NEVER used a cheat, EVER? Please Don, even you know this isn't true. And you want to talk about Slander? How about your little conversation with Derek the other day? Or how you pose as Joey Aguilar and go out and bash my "wife." Hint #2 I'm not married Don, but nice try. "Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:uY5fa.20032$[email hidden]... Mr. King.. The Master of Slander without Facts.. Same ole Kevin King! Where is your proof !!! Post it on a website.. Who ever said I was ever caught on Ten. Ten? Papyrus? No One!! Just more made up crap from Kevin King! You are right that many people were caught, but it wasnt me as I never did. If you remember there was only one person reported caught and it wasnt me.. Get your facts straight! lol don "Kevin King" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:QR5fa.58$I%2.9@fed1read02... I guess you are unaware of Don's past? He was caught cheating on TEN. Try not to lecture me. Thanks. "Pete" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:jb5fa.9205$[email hidden]... Let me get this straight. You are blaming Don for cheating and yes I watched you do it because we have found a way to get the setups to preform better? If Papy leaves the holes then whose fault is that? I saw no rules stating that you can't alter the setups with adjustments that are provided in the setup management. If you aren't prepared to do something as basic as playing with the car weights to get better tire wear than thats your problem stick to fixed setups. By the way I'm the one who has done some of Don's setups so if you want to accuse anyone of cheating you better accuse me. Its sounds like sour grapes to me. Maybe you have over estimated your ability. Pete "Kevin King" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:cAQea.2573$[email hidden]... Oh yes and that's VERY realistic isn't it? Especially since we were told using around 1830 Front Weight would be used.

Cambers, I never once used the 7/-7, I swear on that. It never worked for me, AND guess what? I have a lot of decency in myself to not use stupid tricks that I know are flaws. Like the 7/-7 camber BS in N4. And the high PSI that followed it. Pete you don't know me, so why to judge me based off what Don says to you? Why is Don not invited to run in VRW? Obviously something that he has done previously. "Pete" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:726fa.9225$[email hidden]... He was thats new to me! The only one on TEN accused of cheating was Robert Huggins. Perhaps you should get off your high horse and get your facts straight. Don't need to lecture, I was in the room after a Darlington race and watched you ranting like a child. Since you avoided the rest of what I posted why not tell us of the holes you and others have found and used to advantage over the last few years. Big cambers comes to mind. Like I said sour grapes. "Kevin King" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:QR5fa.58$I%2.9@fed1read02... I guess you are unaware of Don's past? He was caught cheating on TEN. Try not to lecture me. Thanks.

Ask Don Pete. His friend Loan managed to flip his car over at Homestead. Ever see that before? He also managed to pass 2 packs of cars up high at Tona, with NO draft help. Oh yeah he also flipped his car over by going from the apron to the track at Vegas. If I could find the replay I will be happy to upload them. "Pete" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ax6fa.9237$[email hidden]... More childish rants! Cars flipping in the turns, nice trick! What track are you talking of with the third lane and drafting. I can't say which tracks Don uses my setups at or not. I have also seen some unbelieveable things occur in the game over the years which I have found questionable as well but without proof Papy did nothing. "Kevin King" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:gU5fa.61$I%2.8@fed1read02... Oh and also, did you make that miraculous setup that allows you to flip your car at Homestead in the turns? And did you make the setup that can run in the 3rd lane up high, and pass 2 packs of cars with no draft? Did you make those?

KK you cant have it both ways.... You idiot.. hehe.. You say you never used 7/7 and than you say it never worked for you! Read below your own post! lol DW "Kevin King" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:qNafa.993$I%2.928@fed1read02... Cambers, I never once used the 7/-7, I swear on that. It never worked for me,

Check any of my setups where I had it. You wont find any. Trying and used is different. Nice try though. Now answer my question. "Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:w6bfa.22315$[email hidden]... KK you cant have it both ways.... You idiot.. hehe.. You say you never used 7/7 and than you say it never worked for you! Read below your own post! lol DW "Kevin King" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:qNafa.993$I%2.928@fed1read02... Cambers, I never once used the 7/-7, I swear on that. It never worked for me,

Because I take it very personal when someone uses my setup and is accused of cheating. Don, isn't allowed to run in VRW because of his run ins with Nim Cross many years ago. I not sure I would be allowed to either because of things from the early days on Hawaii. Although nothing with Nim that I'm aware of. I have been black listed before because of who I chose to be friends with, but thats my choice. There are many holes in all of the editions of Papyrus sims. I know this from first hand experience. Realistic setups never worked before this edition so why would you try and run them. I have real life setups at my disposal and somethings work and some things don't. If I find something that works you would suggest I not use it because it isn't realistic? This fight has gone on for as many years as I have been playing Nascar sims. It used to be titled "grey areas". If its in the game its legit as far as I'm concerned. If you don't experiment to find out what works maybe you shouldn't accuse people of cheating because they can run faster or longer than you. As far as running faster with no draft, I can tell you it is possible at Daytona and Dega in N2002. I guy by the name of Doug Benware did a setup that had Don and I accused of cheating because people couldn't run with us. I could outrun a line of cars on the inside while I was on the outside line with no drafting help. So yes stranger things can happen and still be legit. I know quite a bit about the cheating area and if I chose to I could take advantage of it. There are cheaters out there now and there always have been. I talked with hackers and cheaters to find out what they were doing. Its not that hard if you know the right people. I can't say I'm Don's keeper but when I have run with him over the years I have won as many as I have lost. So if he is cheating he hasn't done it around me. As far as Nim's league goes, he was talking with me on the phone one night and suggested I go watch the VRW league race. The next thing I know he is accused of illegally running in the race. It was hilarious because I sat and talked with him the whole time that race was being run and I know he wasn't driving in it. Its easy to accuse people as a crutch for ones own deficiencies my advice try harder. Thats what I learned to do the hard way. "Kevin King" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:qNafa.993$I%2.928@fed1read02... Cambers, I never once used the 7/-7, I swear on that. It never worked for me, AND guess what? I have a lot of decency in myself to not use stupid tricks that I know are flaws. Like the 7/-7 camber BS in N4. And the high PSI that followed it. Pete you don't know me, so why to judge me based off what Don says to you? Why is Don not invited to run in VRW? Obviously something that he has done previously.

Your going to tell me that you publically post your best setups? If I found something that made me run a lot faster than everyone else and was running in competitive leagues I sure as hell wouldn't be giving it to everyone. The camber tricks have been around since Nascar 1 and they are still there. People wondered for the whole time I was on Hawaii why I was so fast at Tally. Well it was the Camber. If you can accuse Don of cheating with no proof why should I believe you will be totally honest about your setups? "Kevin King" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:6Xbfa.1743$I%2.1358@fed1read02... Check any of my setups where I had it. You wont find any. Trying and used is different. Nice try though. Now answer my question.

I answered the Daytona deal up above. Yes it can be done. I have done it in many races. As far as flipping cars I seem to recall being several hundred feet in the air with previous Nascar releases. So that wouldn't surprise me as much as the old invisible walls we had to deal with at some tracks. Again I have been around too long and seen too many bugs. "Kevin King" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:gPafa.1013$I%2.790@fed1read02... Ask Don Pete. His friend Loan managed to flip his car over at Homestead. Ever see that before? He also managed to pass 2 packs of cars up high at Tona, with NO draft help. Oh yeah he also flipped his car over by going from the apron to the track at Vegas. If I could find the replay I will be happy to upload them.

"another driver" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (45 lines)

> On Sat, 22 Mar 2003 16:59:07 -0500 > In message <f05fa.2380$[email hidden]> > "Jim" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > ... > > This Software (N2003) > > ... > > The LAST thing I'm going to do is cheapen that experience > > by using any kind of driving aid that Papy has added > > Then don't use them. > > > to SELL the software to people who need that sort of help. > > Darn right! People with physical handy caps that cannot use > the ideal hardware should not be allowed a NASCAR experience. > > > ... > > we will continue to be beaten by people who can't do it any > > other way but the "easy way ! !" > > Calibrate your wheel so it only moves 1" each way from center and > unplug your pedals. When you can get better times than you do now > while driving competitively and holding all the driving lines in > traffic, please let me know. I'd love to have these magic settings > and setups so I can be competitive across the board. > > > I will add in closing that....... IMHO, > > Your opinion yes. Humble? > > > the people who will have the loudest opposition to this post > > will be the very people in question. > > The classic ending for a usenet flame. Good for you. > > If you want a true sim experience, you won't find it in this program. > > However, I agree 100% that "hardcore mode" should be fixed. No aids, > no sensitivity adjustments, all video options ON, no speedometer or > yellow-black flag indicator, no 2x 3x 4x, no look left/right, max > front/rear cars in mirror, no auto-clutch, and whatever else I may > have forgotten. > > ���

Yes I do, I have nothing to hide. "Pete" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Aucfa.7017$[email hidden]... Your going to tell me that you publically post your best setups? If I found something that made me run a lot faster than everyone else and was running in competitive leagues I sure as hell wouldn't be giving it to everyone. The camber tricks have been around since Nascar 1 and they are still there. People wondered for the whole time I was on Hawaii why I was so fast at Tally. Well it was the Camber. If you can accuse Don of cheating with no proof why should I believe you will be totally honest about your setups? "Kevin King" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:6Xbfa.1743$I%2.1358@fed1read02... Check any of my setups where I had it. You wont find any. Trying and used is different. Nice try though. Now answer my question.

That was the ONLY time it had happened. Also the same person flipped their car at Vegas while going around the track at full speed. "Pete" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Aycfa.7019$[email hidden]... I answered the Daytona deal up above. Yes it can be done. I have done it in many races. As far as flipping cars I seem to recall being several hundred feet in the air with previous Nascar releases. So that wouldn't surprise me as much as the old invisible walls we had to deal with at some tracks. Again I have been around too long and seen too many bugs. "Kevin King" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:gPafa.1013$I%2.790@fed1read02... Ask Don Pete. His friend Loan managed to flip his car over at Homestead. Ever see that before? He also managed to pass 2 packs of cars up high at Tona, with NO draft help. Oh yeah he also flipped his car over by going from the apron to the track at Vegas. If I could find the replay I will be happy to upload them.

Your so modest. I'm impressed. "Kevin King" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:yU4ha.645$qF3.457@fed1read04... Yes I do, I have nothing to hide.

Your so modest. I'm impressed. Yes I do, I have nothing to hide.

Only happened once? I couldn't count how many times I did it. (Passing outside with no help) If I recall airborne activity and warping in N4 and N2002 were very common. Can't comment on incidents I wasn't there to witness. Pete "Kevin King" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9V4ha.650$qF3.205@fed1read04... That was the ONLY time it had happened. Also the same person flipped their car at Vegas while going around the track at full speed.

Ok, what's the camber trick :) Larry "Kevin King" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:yU4ha.645$qF3.457@fed1read04... Yes I do, I have nothing to hide. "Pete" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Aucfa.7017$[email hidden]... Your going to tell me that you publically post your best setups? If I found something that made me run a lot faster than everyone else and was running in competitive leagues I sure as hell wouldn't be giving it to everyone. The camber tricks have been around since Nascar 1 and they are still there. People wondered for the whole time I was on Hawaii why I was so fast at Tally. Well it was the Camber. If you can accuse Don of cheating with no proof why should I believe you will be totally honest about your setups? "Kevin King" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:6Xbfa.1743$I%2.1358@fed1read02... Check any of my setups where I had it. You wont find any. Trying and used is different. Nice try though. Now answer my question.

Larry, in Nascar 2002 people were going with cambers of 7 7 and they flew. They fixed it in the patch but there has been a flaw with the cambers since Nascar 1 if you do unrealistic settings you can get very good tire wear and speeds. Pete "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Mosha.3288$[email hidden]... Ok, what's the camber trick :) Larry

Wow... Larry "Pete" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:n9tha.8861$[email hidden]... Larry, in Nascar 2002 people were going with cambers of 7 7 and they flew. They fixed it in the patch but there has been a flaw with the cambers since Nascar 1 if you do unrealistic settings you can get very good tire wear and speeds. Pete "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Mosha.3288$[email hidden]... Ok, what's the camber trick :) Larry