who is the best all around driver currently and in the history of auto racing ???

There have been so many great drivers both currently and in the past. I have often wondered if there was a true IROC event that included F-1, Nascar, Cart, Rally , off-road racing, Sprintcars, who would be the best all-around driver at present and in the past ? Any opinions ?

On Tue, 25 Feb 2003 22:57:50 GMT, amp green <[email hidden]> wrote: >There have been so many great drivers both currently and in the past. I >have often wondered if there was a true IROC event that included F-1, >Nascar, Cart, Rally , off-road racing, Sprintcars, who would be the best >all-around driver at present and in the past ? >Any opinions ? All-time I don't think there's any question of it being Mario. No one really came close to the number of things he succeeded in on 4 wheels (altho Surtees certainly gets bonus points for his bike career). Currently, I really couldn't answer that. No one switches series much anymore, so it's tough to gauge how people would fare against each other. We were lucky enough to see Andretti beat Petty/Pearson in stock cars, Rick Mears in Indy Cars, Lauda in F1, and pretty much anyone who raced him in USAC sprints. There isn't anyone driving now who can make remotely similar claims. I'd suspect that the top drivers in each style of racing that you listed would fare well in such a series, but I wouldn't put money on any of them outside of their element. Jason

"amp green" wrote > I have often wondered if there was a true IROC event that included F-1, > Nascar, Cart, Rally , off-road racing, Sprintcars, who would be the best > all-around driver at present and in the past ? > Jim Clark might have been the greatest all rounder ever. He won 2 F1 World Championships, won the '65 Indy 500, won the '64 British Touring Car title, finished on the podium at the Le Mans 24 hour race. He tried his hand at rallying, and almost embarrassed some of the full time drivers with his speed. He also raced at Rockingham in NASCAR, a race in which he qualified 24th, and ran as high as 12th before his engine blew. One must remember he died at the age of 32, so he may have achieved even more. There is a great piece in Clarks book about NASCAR. "These boys are really racing. They race on oval tracks or, as at Daytona, on tri-ovals with production type saloon cars all modified from chassis to wheels in one of the most sensational forms of motor racing I have ever seen." "I befriended "Fireball" Roberts who that year reportedly earned �20,000 in this form of racing along. He asked me if I would like to have a go at it in practice and I grabbed a helmet and set off. Well frankly this was the end. These cars are as right as a Grand Prix car with no give in them. They accelerate like made and seem to hang on at the corners. The big scare comes when someone starts "drafting" you down the straights. To do this they tuck into your slipstream as in Grand Prix racing, only with these big cars they get mighty close. It is not uncommon to see two of these cars "drafting" along the straights with only six inches between them and it scares the living daylights out of you."

"amp green" wrote... > <snip> Motorsport ran an article concerning this very question in their January 2003 issue. If you can't find it, I'll scan it, but that might take a while as it's quite a hassle to set up and my schedule is pretty tight right now. Jan. =---

amp green <[email hidden]> wrote here on 25 Feb 2003: > There have been so many great drivers both currently and in the > past. I have often wondered if there was a true IROC event that > included F-1, Nascar, Cart, Rally , off-road racing, Sprintcars, > who would be the best all-around driver at present and in the past > ? Any opinions ? Ever? My vote goes to Jim Clark. Currently is trickier, as we don't really get all-rounders anymore. Colin McRae, maybe? As well as rallying, he's driven in a BTCC race, was (IIRC) vey quick in a test for Jordan a while back (not a race, granted), and likes throwing big motorbikes around in his spare time. Not sure if he's ever driven sportscars, but I wouldn't put it past him! -- Above address *is* valid - but snip spamtrap to get me to *read*!

On Tue, 25 Feb 2003 22:57:50 GMT, amp green <[email hidden]> wrote: >There have been so many great drivers both currently and in the past. I >have often wondered if there was a true IROC event that included F-1, >Nascar, Cart, Rally , off-road racing, Sprintcars, who would be the best >all-around driver at present and in the past ? >Any opinions ? I'd also go for Mario Andretti as best all-around driver of the past. Stirling Moss would be my second choice. For current all-rounders, I'd pick Robby Gordon. Martin

All time - Jim Clark Present day - Tony Stewart George Adams "All good fishermen stay young until they die, for fishing is the only dream of youth that doth not grow stale with age." ---- J.W Muller

"Martin Ursua" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Tue, 25 Feb 2003 22:57:50 GMT, amp green <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >There have been so many great drivers both currently and in the past. I > >have often wondered if there was a true IROC event that included F-1, > >Nascar, Cart, Rally , off-road racing, Sprintcars, who would be the best > >all-around driver at present and in the past ? > >Any opinions ? > > I'd also go for Mario Andretti as best all-around driver of the past. > Stirling Moss would be my second choice. > > For current all-rounders, I'd pick Robby Gordon. > > Martin >

If you mean drivers who have won the most races in several categories and not just participants, Tony Stewart and Jeff Gordon have more all around success than Robby. Tim Richmond was also pretty good all around when he was alive. IIRC

On Tue, 25 Feb 2003 22:35:01 -0500, "gordo" <noway@iwantspam> wrote: >If you mean drivers who have won the most races in several categories and not just participants, >Tony Stewart and Jeff Gordon have more all around success than Robby. >Tim Richmond was also pretty good all around when he was alive. IIRC True, especially given Jeff's great performance at the Michelin Race of Champions recently. Robby's name was just the first to pop in my head since it seems he keeps jumping from one kind of racing vehicle to another. "Jack of all trades..." Martin

"amp green" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:OxS6a.5819$[email hidden]... : There have been so many great drivers both currently and in the past. I : have often wondered if there was a true IROC event that included F-1, : Nascar, Cart, Rally , off-road racing, Sprintcars, who would be the best : all-around driver at present and in the past ? : Any opinions ? The only valid opinion - is that you cant compare or draw conclusions It's like asking who's a better athlete, a world leading high jumper, a world leading javlin thrower, a world leading sprinter Doug

"amp green" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:OxS6a.5819$[email hidden]... > There have been so many great drivers both currently and in the past. I > have often wondered if there was a true IROC event that included F-1, > Nascar, Cart, Rally , off-road racing, Sprintcars, who would be the best > all-around driver at present and in the past ? > Any opinions ? Of course it's Michael Schumacher for both. This is an anti-modern F1 group which is why (as I expected) his name hasn't come up yet. David G Fisher

From an Australian point of view, you've got to include Kiwi Jim Richards in any list of all round drivers. He's driven Formula 1 -2 and 3. Fourth outright at Le Mans. Driven about anything on four wheels and does it well. Touring cars. History Making Solar cars. http://www.castrol.com.au/index_flash.html?motorsport/profiles_team1_larry.j sp~center on page three of his profile, check out his extended biography just my 0.02 worth Steve

amp green <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<OxS6a.5819$[email hidden]>... > There have been so many great drivers both currently and in the past. I > have often wondered if there was a true IROC event that included F-1, > Nascar, Cart, Rally , off-road racing, Sprintcars, who would be the best > all-around driver at present and in the past ? > Any opinions ? Past: Foyt or Andretti. Hard to say since Foyt never tried F1. His record outshines Andretti's in most/all the categories they had in common. Present: Tony Stewart. I'd really like to see what he could do in a Rally car. He likes to play computer games, so he'd be a cinch in F1. ;)

On Wed, 26 Feb 2003 07:26:00 -0500, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Of course it's Michael Schumacher for both. > >This is an anti-modern F1 group which is why (as I expected) his name hasn't >come up yet. I consider Schumacher the greatest ever pure F1 driver (or at least tied with Fangio/Moss/Clark/Stewart), but what other motorsport has he competed in aside from F1 training series? I'm not saying he wouldn't smoke everyone in stock cars or rallying, I just haven't seen him do much else. Jason

On Wed, 26 Feb 2003 10:51:34 GMT, Martin Ursua <[email hidden]> wrote: >True, especially given Jeff's great performance at the Michelin Race >of Champions recently. I'd like to see Jeff Gordon and Jimmie Johnson pilot a Vette at Le Mans. I think they would do a decent job. Jason

"amp green" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:OxS6a.5819$[email hidden]... > There have been so many great drivers both currently and in the past. I > have often wondered if there was a true IROC event that included F-1, > Nascar, Cart, Rally , off-road racing, Sprintcars, who would be the best > all-around driver at present and in the past ? > Any opinions ? > Me, of course :) Ash http://www.siroccoracing.com

"RS" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:b3gvur$1mfu4r$[email hidden]...

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> "amp green" wrote > > I have often wondered if there was a true IROC event that included F-1, > > Nascar, Cart, Rally , off-road racing, Sprintcars, who would be the best > > all-around driver at present and in the past ? > > > > Jim Clark might have been the greatest all rounder ever. >

Oh please. It's Jacky Ickx of course... ;o) http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/drv-ickjac.html http://www.gpracing.net192.com/drivers/careers/290.cfm

Don't forget Jacky Ickx. 6 times victory in Le Mans (sportscar), winner of Paris-Dakar (rally), runner-up in F1 World Championship + 8(?) F1 Grand Prix. JoH On Tue, 25 Feb 2003 22:57:50 GMT, amp green <[email hidden]> wrote: >There have been so many great drivers both currently and in the past. I >have often wondered if there was a true IROC event that included F-1, >Nascar, Cart, Rally , off-road racing, Sprintcars, who would be the best >all-around driver at present and in the past ? >Any opinions ?

Henri Toivonen ofcourse. He was the guy who gave Senna a match in F3, and he was the guy who won Rallys in the group-b era. He drove in group c, in Porsche 956 with Derek Bell. etc, etc. Not the fastest group c-driver,but overall he was one of the best imo :) If he had lived for another 10years, i wouldnt be surprised to see him in F1. "amp green" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:OxS6a.5819$[email hidden]... > There have been so many great drivers both currently and in the past. I > have often wondered if there was a true IROC event that included F-1, > Nascar, Cart, Rally , off-road racing, Sprintcars, who would be the best > all-around driver at present and in the past ? > Any opinions ? >

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>>Of course it's Michael Schumacher for both. >> >>This is an anti-modern F1 group which is why (as I expected) his name >>hasn't come up yet. > > I consider Schumacher the greatest ever pure F1 driver (or at least > tied with Fangio/Moss/Clark/Stewart), but what other motorsport has he > competed in aside from F1 training series? I'm not saying he wouldn't > smoke everyone in stock cars or rallying, I just haven't seen him do > much else. > > Jason >

He raced endurance racing for awhile.. But David, how can there be an anti F1 sentiment when they mentioned Clark, and Andretti and Ickyx etc etc(all F1 drivers)? MS is certainly brilliant. Just due to the current state of motorracing, he doesn't get to showcase his considerable talents in other arena's. dave henrie

Martin Ursua wrote:

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> On Tue, 25 Feb 2003 22:35:01 -0500, "gordo" <noway@iwantspam> wrote: > > >If you mean drivers who have won the most races in several categories and not just participants, > >Tony Stewart and Jeff Gordon have more all around success than Robby. > >Tim Richmond was also pretty good all around when he was alive. IIRC > > True, especially given Jeff's great performance at the Michelin Race > of Champions recently. Robby's name was just the first to pop in my > head since it seems he keeps jumping from one kind of racing vehicle > to another. > > "Jack of all trades..." >

"And master of none..." JD -- ============================================ Reach heaven far too high ============================================

"Andreas Nystrom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:hd47a.12329$[email hidden]... > Henri Toivonen ofcourse. > He was the guy who gave Senna a match in F3, and he was the guy who won I hear Martin Brundle complaining in the background "that was me, that was me..."

"Stephen F." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3e5ce5a4$[email hidden]... : : "Andreas Nystrom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message : news:hd47a.12329$[email hidden]... : > Henri Toivonen ofcourse. : > He was the guy who gave Senna a match in F3, and he was the guy who won : : I hear Martin Brundle complaining in the background "that was me, that was : me..." Indeed - as the only team mate that MS has had that presented any challenge - Martin is a superb driver DOug

In article <[email hidden]>, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> writes: >Of course it's Michael Schumacher for both. > >This is an anti-modern F1 group which is why (as I expected) his name hasn't >come up yet. You're jumping to conclusions, Davie. What else does Schumacher drive besides F1? I think he's a great driver(even though he's not my favorite), and I think he'd do well in almost any series. But since he doesn't run ano other series, you can't throw his name out there in the context of *this* question. I've also said before that I wished drivers competed in multiple series like they used to in the 60's and 70's... Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:-0.381 MonsterRank: +339.873 N2002 Rank:+17.59 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

"amp green" wrote...

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> There have been so many great drivers both currently > and in the past. I have often wondered if there was > a true IROC event that included F-1, Nascar, Cart, > Rally , off-road racing, Sprintcars, who would be > the best all-around driver at present and in the > past ? > Any opinions ?

Modern drivers are not as free to diversify as drivers in the "historic" period, but, hypothetically, I think if Valentino Rossi was allowed to follow his interests he'd race anything and everything and be quick in it. Jan. =---

AJ. 4 wins at Indy - wins at Daytona 500 - Nascar - USAC stocks and sprints - LeMans - Rolex 24 with the greatest drive (in the rain) that I've ever witnessed and this from a man who hated "sporty car racing" because he didn't like having to slow down. Someone else mentioned Tim Richmond. In my humble opinion, may be the most talented driver I ever saw. Too sad that we will never know if he would have reached his potential. Mike

On 26 Feb 2003 18:17:31 GMT, [email hidden] (EldredP) wrote:

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>In article <[email hidden]>, "David G Fisher" ><[email hidden]> writes: > >>Of course it's Michael Schumacher for both. >> >>This is an anti-modern F1 group which is why (as I expected) his name hasn't >>come up yet. > >You're jumping to conclusions, Davie. What else does Schumacher drive besides >F1? I think he's a great driver(even though he's not my favorite), and I think >he'd do well in almost any series. But since he doesn't run ano other series, >you can't throw his name out there in the context of *this* question. I've >also said before that I wished drivers competed in multiple series like they >used to in the 60's and 70's... >

The problrm with Schumi is that when he got behind the wheel of a 50's F1 car he said it scared the hell out of him, no doubt he would do good but the problem with a question like this is that you can't really take into account what the drivers got to use. For me though I would say AJ and Mario since they have wins in all the top forms (each one is missing one from their resume though) Modern day I would have to give a (reluctant) nod to Tony Stewert considering he drive in top. Dale Earnhardt only strayed out his area once for the 24 of Daytona (though he talked about doing it more - that was not meant to be) and his team finished 3rd? in class.

"Steve Whitty" <stev_mazz at optusnet dot com dot au> wrote in news:3e5cbdca$0$16255$[email hidden]:

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> From an Australian point of view, you've got to include Kiwi Jim > Richards in any list of all round drivers. He's driven Formula 1 -2 > and 3. Fourth outright at Le Mans. Driven about anything on four > wheels and does it well. Touring cars. History Making Solar cars. > http://www.castrol.com.au/index_flash.html?motorsport/profiles_team1_la > rry.j sp~center > > on page three of his profile, check out his extended biography > > just my 0.02 worth > > Steve > > >

Well not to be out done, from a New Zealand point of view, I would offer Denny Hulme who was 1967 F1 champ, won Le Mans with Bruce McLaren (another Kiwi) in the McLaren designed Ford GT40, raced touring cars and 18 wheel trucks with great success in the 80s and 90s, and finally died by heart attack during the 1992 Bathurst 1000, as a true racer. He also went down in history as a great "Kiwi battler" when in 1970 he suffered seriously burnt hands when his car caught fire at Indy raceway. This was closely followed by Bruce McLarens tragic death whilst testing a new Can-Am car, then, with his hands literally tied to the steering wheel and gearstick, he went on to win the the CanAm title. .02c deposited with great flourishes. RIP Denny.

Krayy <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]: <snip>

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> > Well not to be out done, from a New Zealand point of view, I would > offer Denny Hulme who was 1967 F1 champ, won Le Mans with Bruce > McLaren (another Kiwi) in the McLaren designed Ford GT40, raced > touring cars and 18 wheel trucks with great success in the 80s and > 90s, and finally died by heart attack during the 1992 Bathurst 1000, > as a true racer. >

Ooops....shows you how much I know....it was Chris Amon who partnered Bruce McLaren in the GT40....Much apologies to all concerned ;-(

Lets see... He's won: - 4 Indycar titles (n.e. Champcar) - 52 Indycar (n.e. Champcar) races - the last at the age of 50. - 1 F1 WC - 12 F1-races - The Indy 500 - The Daytona 500 - The Sebring 12hr. - 3 times! - 8 Formula 5000 races - The Daytona 6hrs. - Pikes Peak Hillclimb - 1 IROC Championship - and countless IROC races Mario Andretti is the man for the job. -- ed_ RASCAR: http://rascar.racesimcentral.com --------------------------------------------------------------- $10 says Petter Solberg wins the 2003 WRC!

Did Rick Mears compete in alot of off road desert and hill climb competition before he competed in Indy car racing ? I don't remember if he was as sucessful in off-road racing. Race1530 wrote:

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> AJ. 4 wins at Indy - wins at Daytona 500 - Nascar - USAC stocks and sprints - > LeMans - Rolex 24 with the greatest drive (in the rain) that I've ever > witnessed and this from a man who hated "sporty car racing" because he didn't > like having to slow down. > > Someone else mentioned Tim Richmond. In my humble opinion, may be the most > talented driver I ever saw. Too sad that we will never know if he would have > reached his potential. > > Mike

amp green <[email hidden]> wrote: >Did Rick Mears compete in alot of off road desert and hill climb >competition before he competed in Indy car racing ? >I don't remember if he was as sucessful in off-road racing. > I believe he did some off-road racing, but it was his brother Roger (Casey's dad) who was more successful at it.

I saw Mark Donahue win a Trans-Am race at Ste. Jovite. Admittedly not the best competition, but... There's a R at the end of the main straight, a short straight, and a L. The schlubs would use half the track through the R to get back for the L. The fast guys would drift through the corner, maybe ending up a little short, maybe dumping a wheel off. They'd scramble to get position for the L. Donahue would come screaming in until you were sure he wouldn't make it. Hs brake lights were on far deeper into the corner than anyone. He'd drift through the R to the very edge of the track, and regain traction with the car pointed perfectly, slightly across the track, heading for the L. Lap after lap, exactly the same. He did well in IROC, when that meant something. Also, Nuvolari frequently beat the world's best while driving inferior cars.

"Ed Solheim" <edwins[_R_E_M_O_V_E_]@[_T_H_I_S_]online.no> wrote in message news:L8d7a.27102$[email hidden]...

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> Lets see... > > He's won: > - 4 Indycar titles (n.e. Champcar) > - 52 Indycar (n.e. Champcar) races - the last at the age of 50. > - 1 F1 WC > - 12 F1-races > - The Indy 500 > - The Daytona 500 > - The Sebring 12hr. - 3 times! > - 8 Formula 5000 races > - The Daytona 6hrs. > - Pikes Peak Hillclimb > - 1 IROC Championship > - and countless IROC races > > > Mario Andretti is the man for the job. > >

Sorry, he never won LeMans and is therefore not eligible... :-) Of course Mario's the man. He also gets bonus points for being fast and active in his 50s.

How about Phil Hill ? or Dan Gurney? George Adams "All good fishermen stay young until they die, for fishing is the only dream of youth that doth not grow stale with age." ---- J.W Muller

On Wed, 26 Feb 2003 10:51:34 GMT, Martin Ursua <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>On Tue, 25 Feb 2003 22:35:01 -0500, "gordo" <noway@iwantspam> wrote: > >>If you mean drivers who have won the most races in several categories and not just participants, >>Tony Stewart and Jeff Gordon have more all around success than Robby. >>Tim Richmond was also pretty good all around when he was alive. IIRC > >True, especially given Jeff's great performance at the Michelin Race >of Champions recently. Robby's name was just the first to pop in my >head since it seems he keeps jumping from one kind of racing vehicle >to another. > >"Jack of all trades..."

Or "can't hold down a job"? :) "But in a way, fear is a big part of racing, because if there was nothing to be frightened of, and no limit, any fool could get into a motor car and racing would not exist as a sport." -- Jim Clark

On Wed, 26 Feb 2003 14:31:41 GMT, "Andreas Nystrom" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Henri Toivonen ofcourse. >He was the guy who gave Senna a match in F3, and he was the guy who won >Rallys in the group-b era. >He drove in group c, in Porsche 956 with Derek Bell. >etc, etc. Not the fastest group c-driver,but overall he was one of the best >imo :) >If he had lived for another 10years, i wouldnt be surprised to see him in >F1. >

Henri Toivonen, Senna, F3, now I am confused. I thought Brundle gave Senna a run for his money in 1983. Can you explain how Toivonen got involved??? On the subject of all rouders : has anyone thought of John Surtees. Drove Formula cars, Sportscars and won a shitload of motorbike titles, although Mario Andretti, Clark and Ickx are also way up there...

I think Tazio Nuvolari is the best driver ever. He won many titles on many cars in an eara, where the men drove the cars, no ingenieurs on their computers. Rolf <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:[email hidden]...

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> On Wed, 26 Feb 2003 14:31:41 GMT, "Andreas Nystrom" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > > >Henri Toivonen ofcourse. > >He was the guy who gave Senna a match in F3, and he was the guy who won > >Rallys in the group-b era. > >He drove in group c, in Porsche 956 with Derek Bell. > >etc, etc. Not the fastest group c-driver,but overall he was one of the

best

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> >imo :) > >If he had lived for another 10years, i wouldnt be surprised to see him in > >F1. > > > > Henri Toivonen, Senna, F3, now I am confused. I thought Brundle gave > Senna a run for his money in 1983. Can you explain how Toivonen got > involved??? > > On the subject of all rouders : has anyone thought of John Surtees. > Drove Formula cars, Sportscars and won a shitload of motorbike titles, > although Mario Andretti, Clark and Ickx are also way up there...

"Rolf Wesemann" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:b3qlfu$d2$06$[email hidden]... > I think Tazio Nuvolari is the best driver ever. He won many titles on many > cars in an eara, where the men drove the cars, no ingenieurs on their > computers. > > Rolf Q. Officer, what led you to believe the defendant was under the influence? A. Because he was argumentary and he couldn't pronunciate his words. ;-)

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> <[email hidden]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > news:[email hidden]... > > On Wed, 26 Feb 2003 14:31:41 GMT, "Andreas Nystrom" <[email hidden]> > > wrote: > > > > >Henri Toivonen ofcourse. > > >He was the guy who gave Senna a match in F3, and he was the guy who won > > >Rallys in the group-b era. > > >He drove in group c, in Porsche 956 with Derek Bell. > > >etc, etc. Not the fastest group c-driver,but overall he was one of the > best > > >imo :) > > >If he had lived for another 10years, i wouldnt be surprised to see him

in

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> > >F1. > > > > > > > Henri Toivonen, Senna, F3, now I am confused. I thought Brundle gave > > Senna a run for his money in 1983. Can you explain how Toivonen got > > involved??? > > > > On the subject of all rouders : has anyone thought of John Surtees. > > Drove Formula cars, Sportscars and won a shitload of motorbike titles, > > although Mario Andretti, Clark and Ickx are also way up there... > >

"Rich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:zb58a.819$[email hidden]... > > "Rolf Wesemann" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:b3qlfu$d2$06$[email hidden]... > > I think Tazio Nuvolari is the best driver ever. He won many titles onmany

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> > cars in an eara, where the men drove the cars, no ingenieurs on their > > computers. > > > > Rolf > > > Q. Officer, what led you to believe the defendant was under the influence? > > A. Because he was argumentary and he couldn't pronunciate his words. > >

Hi Rich How are your german-language skills? Rolf obviously is posting from germany, and making the effort to post in his second language. Engineer in german is "ingenieur"... it's a simple mistake, and the rigid use of commas for subordinate clauses is also a quirk of the german language. Play nice now :-) Stephen