F1 2003 Coming?

Sorry to start on this, but given the trouble I've had buying F1 2002, I can't help but wonder. Everyone I've tried to buy it from in Australia says they don't have it and EA have delisted it, so they can't order one in for me... I've got one coming by post from Harvey Norman, finally, but that was the last one they had and it was a display copy. A couple of retailers said they believe a new version is on the way, but when pressed they couldn't give any details. So whaddya think...any word on a new version? Glenn

I've seen a few posts here, but other than that, at least by my perspective, there is no work being done on a new version. Actually I think I remember a website posting that EA had let it's F1 license go and that in itself would preclude another title in that series. dave henrie "Careful Hack" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:wT3T9.19574$[email hidden]... > Sorry to start on this, but given the trouble I've had buying F1 2002, I > can't help but wonder. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.434 / Virus Database: 243 - Release Date: 12/25/02

I'm a pretty generous guy. I could buy a copy and send it to you. What is the postage from Maryland, USA to Australia? Todd "Careful Hack" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:wT3T9.19574$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (15 lines)

> Sorry to start on this, but given the trouble I've had buying F1 2002, I > can't help but wonder. > > Everyone I've tried to buy it from in Australia says they don't have it > and EA have delisted it, so they can't order one in for me... I've got > one coming by post from Harvey Norman, finally, but that was the last > one they had and it was a display copy. > > A couple of retailers said they believe a new version is on the way, but > when pressed they couldn't give any details. > > So whaddya think...any word on a new version? > > Glenn >

Yes, there's not going to be a F1 2003 as far as I'm aware. Unfortunately, ISI are one of those typically secretive outfits that never reveal their future plans. The only game I'm really looking forward to now is Racing Legends. Nascar 2003 is going to be more of the same and Live For Speed looks a bit dated before it's even been released.

JTBurn wrote: > I'm a pretty generous guy. I could buy a copy and send it to you. What is > the postage from Maryland, USA to Australia? > > Todd You are generous Todd! The postage would probably not be too much, but I'll wait until tomorrow and see if the latest attempt to order it bears fruit. As far as I know a copy is on the way. Thanks for the offer and I'll let you know if I don't get it! Glenn

Quoted text (22 lines)

> > "Careful Hack" wrote in message > news:wT3T9.19574$[email hidden]... > > >Sorry to start on this, but given the trouble I've had buying F1 2002, I > >can't help but wonder. > > > >Everyone I've tried to buy it from in Australia says they don't have it > >and EA have delisted it, so they can't order one in for me... I've got > >one coming by post from Harvey Norman, finally, but that was the last > >one they had and it was a display copy. > > > >A couple of retailers said they believe a new version is on the way, but > >when pressed they couldn't give any details. > > > >So whaddya think...any word on a new version? > > > >Glenn > > > > >

"Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:avir5l$g1uq5$[email hidden]... > Yes, there's not going to be a F1 2003 as far as I'm aware.Unfortunately, > ISI are one of those typically secretive outfits that never reveal their > future plans. The only game I'm really looking forward to now is Racing > Legends. Nascar 2003 is going to be more of the same and Live For Speed > looks a bit dated before it's even been released. > The West Bros. should name their next project "Urban Legends". <ducks for cover> -- Joe M.

I hate to admit that you are right about your Live For Speed comment. That graphics engine could definately use a bit of work. Still a game I'm really looking forward to.. Mike http://mikebeauchamp.com "Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:avir5l$g1uq5$[email hidden]... > Yes, there's not going to be a F1 2003 as far as I'm aware.Unfortunately, > ISI are one of those typically secretive outfits that never reveal their > future plans. The only game I'm really looking forward to now is Racing > Legends. Nascar 2003 is going to be more of the same and Live For Speed > looks a bit dated before it's even been released. > >

"Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:avir5l$g1uq5$[email hidden]... > Yes, there's not going to be a F1 2003 as far as I'm aware.Unfortunately, > ISI are one of those typically secretive outfits that never reveal their > future plans. The only game I'm really looking forward to now is Racing > Legends. Nascar 2003 is going to be more of the same and Live For Speed > looks a bit dated before it's even been released. The West Brothers better release some modern cars in a hurry. The old stuff isn't enough. David G Fisher

> The West Brothers better release some modern cars in a hurry. The oldstuff > isn't enough. Yes, as much as I love classic cars, I would much prefer something which is more relevant to today's racing. That and good online play are the main things LFS has going for it. I'll still buy it - purely for its online play (if some decent leagues start up) but I still prefer the overall physics and graphics experience that GTR 2002 offers.

"Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:avir5l$g1uq5$[email hidden]... > Yes, there's not going to be a F1 2003 as far as I'm aware.Unfortunately, > ISI are one of those typically secretive outfits that never reveal their > future plans. The only game I'm really looking forward to now is Racing > Legends. Nascar 2003 is going to be more of the same and Live For Speed > looks a bit dated before it's even been released. The LFS boys just updated their website and there's a new zip containing 4 high-res (1280x960) screenshots from a recent unreleased version of the sim. They look better than the current demo that we've all been playing, IMO. Site is here http://lfs.bhmotorsports.com/index.php Press kit with the 4 images is here http://lfs.bhmotorsports.com/presskit.zip

: The West Brothers better release some modern cars in a hurry. The old stuff : isn't enough. Nahh - old stuff is never enough. GPL's a bag-o-shite isnt it. huh??? Doug

"Dave Henrie" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:%r4T9.615294$%[email hidden]:

Quoted text (7 lines)

> I've seen a few posts here, but other than that, at least by my > perspective, there is no work being done on a new version. > Actually I think I remember a website posting that EA had let it's > F1 > license go and that in itself would preclude another title in that > series. dave henrie >

I think 3-year licenses have been common in the past. My theory is that someone called Bernie *perhaps* got a little bit too greedy when it was time to re-negotiate the deal... Still, one can always hope that the very flexible ISI sim engine will manage to survive and improve in other guises -- after all, if it continues to be this moddable, we don't really have to care much about what kind of cars it's equipped with off the shelf. :)

"Doug Ellison" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:avjh88$ghdh4$[email hidden]... : : : The West Brothers better release some modern cars in a hurry. The old : stuff : : isn't enough. : : Nahh - old stuff is never enough. GPL's a bag-o-shite isnt it. : : huh??? : : : Doug That came out wrong. I think the point behind the initial release being the type '49 is that people will be able to compare it to what some still consider the benchmark sim. There are quite a few people planning modern cars as their own add-ons - but I'm sure that once the beta is up and running with the '49 - then getting the licences for more modern cars will be easier and thus they will follow. Cheers Doug

Maybe the older cars aren't even such a bad idea, considering the clientele RL is made for. RL will apparently be _seriously_ expensive, to an extent that many here have cringed at the results of their first serious calculations. You'll have to spend up to ?500.- to get a fairly well equipped racing sim based on RL. Most potential clients will hence be people who have good jobs and can afford to spend that much money. Since these people are typically in the 30-50 years of age bracket, the cars of the late sixties to early eighties are probably highly fascinating for them, perhaps even more so than most (although not all) of the modern cars. The Ferrari 512 made for F1_2002 has acutely reminded me of this fact :) Achim "Doug Ellison" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:avjiev$gbrpp$[email hidden]... ... > > There are quite a few people planning modern cars as their own add-ons -but > I'm sure that once the beta is up and running with the '49 - then getting > the licences for more modern cars will be easier and thus they willfollow.

"Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:avjl4d$f5a75$[email hidden]... : You'll have to spend up to ?500.- to get a fairly well equipped racing sim based on RL. There are no hard numbers. We dont actually know if it'll be �50 or �500. But you're right - it's not for your counterstrike fragmeister teenager Doug

"Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:avjmap$g4gtu$[email hidden]... : Doug, that should have read 'Euro 500.-', the Euro sign got nicked. : : As for the numbers, weren't there numbers mentioned either here on on the : West's website a few months ago? Nothing from the horses mouth. The only similar project is X-Plane ( 2 man team - hi-fidelity simulation project run without a publisher) - and thats $99 I'm guessing - but the ballpark I'd imagine for RL is �100-�150 When I'll spend �200+ on a graphics card - it's not a lot really. Doug

Doug, that should have read 'Euro 500.-', the Euro sign got nicked. As for the numbers, weren't there numbers mentioned either here on on the West's website a few months ago? They were of course not hard numbers, but I think there were numbers mentioned which gave an outline at least. Or am I mistaken? According to these numbers I think $500.- for a fairly fully equipped RL sim wouldn't be an exaggeration. Achim "Doug Ellison" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:avjlhi$gci8k$[email hidden]... ...

Quoted text (7 lines)

> There are no hard numbers. We dont actually know if it'll be �50 or �500. > > But you're right - it's not for your counterstrike fragmeister teenager > > Doug > >

Doug Ellison wrote:

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > : The West Brothers better release some modern cars in a hurry. The old > stuff > : isn't enough. > > Nahh - old stuff is never enough. GPL's a bag-o-shite isnt it. > > huh???

Hehe, Dave is hoping the West boys will do a Pod Racer expansion back. Off-line only, of course, so he can play with his pods alone! Gerry

"Jim Seamus" <[email hidden]> wrote: > The LFS boys just updated their website and there's a new zip containing 4 > high-res (1280x960) screenshots from a recent unreleased version of thesim. > They look better than the current demo that we've all been playing, IMO. > > Site is here http://lfs.bhmotorsports.com/index.php > > Press kit with the 4 images is here > http://lfs.bhmotorsports.com/presskit.zip This is easily the slowest website I've seen for a long time. Feels like dragging a big lump of glue through a field of... well, more glue. Ice D

On Thu, 9 Jan 2003 10:18:20 -0000, "Doug Ellison" <[email hidden]> wrote: >There are quite a few people planning modern cars as their own add-ons - but >I'm sure that once the beta is up and running with the '49 - then getting >the licences for more modern cars will be easier and thus they will follow. I want cars from the late 60's. Big growling sports cars. I want the GT40, Chaparral 2F, and Ferrari GTO. I want 1967-1976 F1 cars in their entirety. I want cars whose performance is still heavily dependent on the driver rather than the car itself. A 50's sim would be fantastic as well, particularly 58 when the mid-engined revolution began. Jason

>"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote > The West Brothers better release some modern cars in a hurry. The oldstuff > isn't enough. It's called Racing Legends. Wake up David. (If they release some modern cars "now", it would work. Considering it won't be released until 2028, those cars will be "Racing Legends" then ! ) -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://ymenard.cjb.net/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Hi Doug, that sounds close to the figures I read if I remember correctly and would also be a price gladly paid by enthusiasts. But wasn't this the price for just a basic starter pack with like one car, one track and not much else? And you'd have to buy every car, track and even modules such as telemetry, setup stuff etc. independently? Or is my memory failing me entirely. Achim "Doug Ellison" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:avjme8$fubid$[email hidden]... > > "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:avjmap$g4gtu$[email hidden]... > : Doug, that should have read 'Euro 500.-', the Euro sign got nicked. > : > : As for the numbers, weren't there numbers mentioned either here on onthe

Quoted text (14 lines)

> : West's website a few months ago? > > Nothing from the horses mouth. > > The only similar project is X-Plane ( 2 man team - hi-fidelity simulation > project run without a publisher) - and thats $99 > > I'm guessing - but the ballpark I'd imagine for RL is �100-�150 > > When I'll spend �200+ on a graphics card - it's not a lot really. > > Doug > >

"Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:avk928$gcv04$[email hidden]... : Hi Doug, : : that sounds close to the figures I read if I remember correctly and would : also be a price gladly paid by enthusiasts. : : But wasn't this the price for just a basic starter pack with like one car, : one track and not much else? And you'd have to buy every car, track and even : modules such as telemetry, setup stuff etc. independently? Or is my memory : failing me entirely. : : Achim I'm affraid you've been hearing bullshit. When so many people rubbish the whole validity of RL exisiting at all however - thats not suprising. Some people sound like they want it to fail and spread unfounded and innacurate rumours to try and make that happen. All was EVER EVER said was that the BETA would have one car and track. Amazingly - despite some clear facts in the FAQ - such rumours still abound.. however - from the faq... What Rally era will Racing Legends simulate? All eras eventually. We are going to charge for all expansion packs! Some confusion here that needs to be cleared up. We do not intend to charge for every expansion pack. If it is a feature that you would normally expect to find in a racing simulator then this will be offered as a free patch for download, features such as weather, damage, replay etc. Complete new functionality or major feature updates will cost and the price will depend upon the complexity of the pack. As an example a one of the packs planned is an advanced aerodynamic and wind tunnel feature. Many people will not be interested in this but some will, it does not detract from the simulator if you choose not to buy it but it will add if you decide to, again we leave it up to the customer to decide. One of the main reasons for choosing to go the route of releasing the core of the simulator and then adding to it was that it allows us to give you access to the simulator months before you would have done had we decided we needed to have all features in place before releasing it. Only 1 car and 1 track in the initial release. Some more confusion here. It was mentioned at Goodwood that there would be only one car and one track to start with in Racing Legends. This was referring to the initial beta test version of Racing Legends and not the release version. This will come complete with however many cars and tracks are completed at the time of the initial release.. So there you go. Doug

thanks for clearing that up Doug. Achim "Doug Ellison" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:avk9lb$gavi7$[email hidden]... ... > We are going to charge for all expansion packs!...

"ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:wxfT9.4367$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (18 lines)

> >"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote > > The West Brothers better release some modern cars in a hurry. The old > stuff > > isn't enough. > > > > It's called Racing Legends. Wake up David. > > > > > > > > (If they release some modern cars "now", it would work. Considering it > won't be released until 2028, those cars will be "Racing Legends" then ! > )

They've said all eras will be simulated. BTW, isn't Michael Schumacher a legend right now? David G Fisher

"Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Thu, 9 Jan 2003 10:18:20 -0000, "Doug Ellison" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >There are quite a few people planning modern cars as their own add-ons -but > >I'm sure that once the beta is up and running with the '49 - then getting > >the licences for more modern cars will be easier and thus they willfollow.

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > I want cars from the late 60's. Big growling sports cars. I want the > GT40, Chaparral 2F, and Ferrari GTO. I want 1967-1976 F1 cars in > their entirety. I want cars whose performance is still heavily > dependent on the driver rather than the car itself. A 50's sim would > be fantastic as well, particularly 58 when the mid-engined revolution > began. > > Jason

Yes, I know, because drivers back then were better than the drivers of today, right? David G Fisher

> Yes, I know, because drivers back then were better than the drivers of > today, right? Of course. The cars these days just drive themselves. Michael Schumacher's no better than you or I - he's just been lucky to get the right cars throughout his career. </sarcasm> Don't worry David. There's a term for this. It's called, "Good ole day" syndrome. Me, well, I prefer to live in the present and look to the future.

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > Yes, there's not going to be a F1 2003 as far as I'm aware. > Unfortunately, > > ISI are one of those typically secretive outfits that never reveal their > > future plans. The only game I'm really looking forward to now is Racing > > Legends. Nascar 2003 is going to be more of the same and Live For Speed > > looks a bit dated before it's even been released. > > The LFS boys just updated their website and there's a new zip containing 4 > high-res (1280x960) screenshots from a recent unreleased version of the

sim. > They look better than the current demo that we've all been playing, IMO. The stuttery frame rate will need to be sorted out too. It runs far too slow on high-end hardware considering the visual detail on offer.

"Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:avktn2$fhmrk$[email hidden]... > The stuttery frame rate will need to be sorted out too. It runs far too > slow on high-end hardware considering the visual detail on offer. Yeah, it is bad for framerate. One of the LFS team posted about that on RSC but he just talked about hardware issues, which IMO isn't the problem, it's the physics code that's not optimised and is way too heavy on the cpu. We'll have to see how v0.2 turns out, it's due sometime this month.

> Yeah, it is bad for framerate. One of the LFS team posted about that onRSC > but he just talked about hardware issues, which IMO isn't the problem,it's > the physics code that's not optimised and is way too heavy on the cpu. > > We'll have to see how v0.2 turns out, it's due sometime this month. Yeah I think something's bogging the CPU down since graphics resolution makes little difference to my system. I'd say that there's a fair chance that it *is* the physics code that's bogging things down.

Agreed, but I would include the early 60's as well. I have a vintage race car calendar next to me with a picture of a gorgeous 1961 Ferrari Testa Rossa. Damn I want to drive that thing! "Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > I want cars from the late 60's. Big growling sports cars. I want the > GT40, Chaparral 2F, and Ferrari GTO. I want 1967-1976 F1 cars in > their entirety. I want cars whose performance is still heavily > dependent on the driver rather than the car itself. A 50's sim would > be fantastic as well, particularly 58 when the mid-engined revolution > began. > > Jason

I assume it will live on in NASCAR Thunder. CART mod, here we come. ;o) "B Bonnet" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > Still, one can always hope that the very flexible ISI sim engine will > manage to survive and improve in other guises -- after all, if itcontinues > to be this moddable, we don't really have to care much about what kind of > cars it's equipped with off the shelf. :) >

On Fri, 10 Jan 2003 08:28:52 +1000, "Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Of course. The cars these days just drive themselves. Michael Schumacher's >no better than you or I - he's just been lucky to get the right cars >throughout his career. </sarcasm> I dont' agree with the "no better than you or I" part but the "just been lucky to get the right cars" part is pretty spot on. Do you honestly believe Schumacher would be taking poles and winning races driving for Minardi? Likewise, do you really think if Mark Webber were given a ride in Ferrari it would take even a full season for him to win a race? The cars don't drive themselves, but it's also true that the driver makes less of a difference than he has at any point in the history of motorsport, with F1 being the worst possible example you could have given. In the front-engined era, it was common for the top drivers to win races in backmarker equipment. It became less common after the switch to mid-engined cars, but it was still very possible for a Surtees or a Stewart to win a race in a car that would've been off the pace in many other driver's hands. Since Colin Chapman decided to bolt a wing on his 49, the difference a driver makes has deteriorated further. Does that mean that a modern F1 car doesn't require any skill to drive? No, it means that, in a modern F1 car, the difference between a great driver and a good driver is much less than it was in a 50's or 60's F1 car. I think it could be argued that Schumacher is a better driver than Clark, Stewart, or Fangio were, but it's really a moot point since there are 19 other drivers in F1 who could be winning races in his equipment anyway. Jason

I see what you're getting at but I think F1 is just as much about cars as it is about drivers - if not more so. If you want a series that's all about drivers, then watch a series where all the cars are the same. Of course, it could be argued that F1 shouldn't be called the 'World Drivers Championship' when the performance of the cars is so varied. By the same token, you won't be hired by a great team if you're a shoddy driver. The best drivers almost always get snapped up by the best teams.

Jason Moyer wrote:

Quoted text (19 lines)

> On Thu, 9 Jan 2003 10:18:20 -0000, "Doug Ellison" > wrote: > > > >There are quite a few people planning modern cars as their own > add-ons - but > >I'm sure that once the beta is up and running with the '49 - then getting > >the licences for more modern cars will be easier and thus they will > follow. > > > I want cars from the late 60's. Big growling sports cars. I want the > GT40, Chaparral 2F, and Ferrari GTO. I want 1967-1976 F1 cars in > their entirety. I want cars whose performance is still heavily > dependent on the driver rather than the car itself. A 50's sim would > be fantastic as well, particularly 58 when the mid-engined revolution > began. > > Jason

Sounds good Jason... although everyone would want to drive the Chaparral sucker car and how are they going to ban it in a sim? Instead of it leading out on its own, there would be twenty of them nose to tail! ....sounds even better!!! :-) Glenn

"Careful Hack > Sounds good Jason... although everyone would want to drive the Chaparral > sucker car and how are they going to ban it in a sim? Instead of it > leading out on its own, there would be twenty of them nose to tail! > ....sounds even better!!! :-) > > Glenn If you have a big Bear problem, what do you do? Get a bigger Bear....If there is a field of Chapparal Suckers...then a certain twin Turbo might be the answer. Then we'd have to ban TWO cars! dave henrie --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.441 / Virus Database: 247 - Release Date: 1/9/03

>"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote > They've said all eras will be simulated. Anyway, since it "should" be open, you'll be able to put in any car model you want. > BTW, isn't Michael Schumacher a legend right now? Not until he gets an equal driver in his team, showing he's not so superior and "legend-like" then we might think. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- http://ymenard.cjb.net/ -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

"Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Fri, 10 Jan 2003 08:28:52 +1000, "Damien Smith" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Of course. The cars these days just drive themselves. MichaelSchumacher's

Quoted text (30 lines)

> >no better than you or I - he's just been lucky to get the right cars > >throughout his career. </sarcasm> > > I dont' agree with the "no better than you or I" part but the "just > been lucky to get the right cars" part is pretty spot on. Do you > honestly believe Schumacher would be taking poles and winning races > driving for Minardi? Likewise, do you really think if Mark Webber > were given a ride in Ferrari it would take even a full season for him > to win a race? > > The cars don't drive themselves, but it's also true that the driver > makes less of a difference than he has at any point in the history of > motorsport, with F1 being the worst possible example you could have > given. In the front-engined era, it was common for the top drivers to > win races in backmarker equipment. It became less common after the > switch to mid-engined cars, but it was still very possible for a > Surtees or a Stewart to win a race in a car that would've been off the > pace in many other driver's hands. Since Colin Chapman decided to > bolt a wing on his 49, the difference a driver makes has deteriorated > further. > > Does that mean that a modern F1 car doesn't require any skill to > drive? No, it means that, in a modern F1 car, the difference between > a great driver and a good driver is much less than it was in a 50's or > 60's F1 car. I think it could be argued that Schumacher is a better > driver than Clark, Stewart, or Fangio were, but it's really a moot > point since there are 19 other drivers in F1 who could be winning > races in his equipment anyway. > > Jason

Over the past two years, Ralf Schumacher in a Williams is tied with the second Ferrari driven by Barrichello for the second most wins in F1, with four. Montoya in the second Williams has 1 win. Michael Schumacher has 19 wins. Seems like what you say doesn't hold up. Also, I'll remind you of how poorly Nicki Lauda did when he tried to drive one of the new Jaguars recently. Not easy to drive at all. Jackie Stewart says that times weren't much different back in his day, and also thinks that the way things are now is the way they should be. In an interview with The Times, Stewart said: "Let's get real. They've just won for three years. Before that, they hadn't won for 21 years. This is sport - things don't always go the way you'd like them to. It would be nice if a different person won every race; it would be nice if different manufacturers won every year. But sport isn't fair. "The job of sport is not to share the honours out equally. The job of sport is to find the strongest, fastest, highest, longest, whatever. In 1971, I won six out of the first eight races. It was OK then, no one said a word other than to congratulate me. Today, the public, apparently, demands fair competition and that means everyone coming up to the line together does it? And a different driver winning every time?" "I believe Schumacher is still on the way up," added Stewart. "If he's got five world titles to his name already, I could see him getting another three or four, maybe more. I would not be at all surprised if the nonsense over the past few months has made him even more determined to stay at the top for longer." David G Fisher

"ymenard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:MAvT9.7161$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (11 lines)

> >"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote > > They've said all eras will be simulated. > > Anyway, since it "should" be open, you'll be able to put in any car model > you want. > > > > BTW, isn't Michael Schumacher a legend right now? > > > Not until he gets an equal driver in his team, showing he's not so

superior > and "legend-like" then we might think. Even other legends think he's the best. Ask Stewart and many others. David G Fisher

"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (53 lines)

> "Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > On Fri, 10 Jan 2003 08:28:52 +1000, "Damien Smith" > > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >Of course. The cars these days just drive themselves. Michael > Schumacher's > > >no better than you or I - he's just been lucky to get the right cars > > >throughout his career. </sarcasm> > > > > I dont' agree with the "no better than you or I" part but the "just > > been lucky to get the right cars" part is pretty spot on. Do you > > honestly believe Schumacher would be taking poles and winning races > > driving for Minardi? Likewise, do you really think if Mark Webber > > were given a ride in Ferrari it would take even a full season for him > > to win a race? > > > > The cars don't drive themselves, but it's also true that the driver > > makes less of a difference than he has at any point in the history of > > motorsport, with F1 being the worst possible example you could have > > given. In the front-engined era, it was common for the top drivers to > > win races in backmarker equipment. It became less common after the > > switch to mid-engined cars, but it was still very possible for a > > Surtees or a Stewart to win a race in a car that would've been off the > > pace in many other driver's hands. Since Colin Chapman decided to > > bolt a wing on his 49, the difference a driver makes has deteriorated > > further. > > > > Does that mean that a modern F1 car doesn't require any skill to > > drive? No, it means that, in a modern F1 car, the difference between > > a great driver and a good driver is much less than it was in a 50's or > > 60's F1 car. I think it could be argued that Schumacher is a better > > driver than Clark, Stewart, or Fangio were, but it's really a moot > > point since there are 19 other drivers in F1 who could be winning > > races in his equipment anyway. > > > > Jason > > Over the past two years, Ralf Schumacher in a Williams is tied with the > second Ferrari driven by Barrichello for the second most wins in F1, with > four. Montoya in the second Williams has 1 win. Michael Schumacher has 19 > wins. > > Seems like what you say doesn't hold up. > > Also, I'll remind you of how poorly Nicki Lauda did when he tried to drive > one of the new Jaguars recently. Not easy to drive at all. > > Jackie Stewart says that times weren't much different back in his day, and > also thinks that the way things are now is the way they should be. > > In an interview with The Times, Stewart said: "Let's get real. They've

just > won for three years. Before that, they hadn't won for 21 years. This is > sport - things don't always go the way you'd like them to. It would benice > if a different person won every race; it would be nice if different > manufacturers won every year. But sport isn't fair. > "The job of sport is not to share the honours out equally. The job ofsport > is to find the strongest, fastest, highest, longest, whatever. In 1971, I > won six out of the first eight races. It was OK then, no one said a word > other than to congratulate me. Today, the public, apparently, demands fair > competition and that means everyone coming up to the line together doesit? > And a different driver winning every time?" > > "I believe Schumacher is still on the way up," added Stewart. "If he's got > five world titles to his name already, I could see him getting anotherthree > or four, maybe more. I would not be at all surprised if the nonsense over > the past few months has made him even more determined to stay at the topfor > longer." > > David G Fisher Cool quote Dave, thanks. John > >

On Fri, 10 Jan 2003 05:56:27 -0500, "David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Over the past two years, Ralf Schumacher in a Williams is tied with the >second Ferrari driven by Barrichello for the second most wins in F1, with >four. Montoya in the second Williams has 1 win. Michael Schumacher has 19 >wins. And this proves what? That Schumacher is a better driver than Barrichello? No shit. I personally believe Schui is the greatest driver to have ever driven an F1 car, but I'm also certain if he had spent his career driving for Shadow and Minardi his career would be viewed significantly differently. Anyway, ask Eddie Irvine or Jacques Villeneuve if the car or driver is more important in F1. I'm sure they would have some interesting insight on the subject. Jason

"Jason Moyer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (13 lines)

> On Fri, 10 Jan 2003 05:56:27 -0500, "David G Fisher" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Over the past two years, Ralf Schumacher in a Williams is tied with the > >second Ferrari driven by Barrichello for the second most wins in F1, with > >four. Montoya in the second Williams has 1 win. Michael Schumacher has 19 > >wins. > > And this proves what? That Schumacher is a better driver than > Barrichello? No shit. I personally believe Schui is the greatest > driver to have ever driven an F1 car, but I'm also certain if he had > spent his career driving for Shadow and Minardi his career would be > viewed significantly differently.

You said that the driver makes little difference in modern F1. The 19-4 advantage for MS over RB the past two years completely proves otherwise. That's what. Ralf Schumacher having as many wins as Barrichello, and four times as many as Montoya is very significant as well. > Anyway, ask Eddie Irvine or Jacques Villeneuve if the car or driver is > more important in F1. I'm sure they would have some interesting > insight on the subject.> > Jason Irvine is an excellent driver who is about to retire, but he had his chance to beat MS and he couldn't. He constantly says MS is the best, and doesn't feel bad (and shouldn't) about doing so. That he couldn't beat MS proves once again that the driver does make a big difference. Yes, JV has wasted some time in his career, but there were also talented drivers in EVERY single era who wasted time in weaker cars. As Damien alluded to, fading memories make the "Good ole days" seem different than they really were. Ask Stewart about '71. Of course MS wouldn't spend his career in a Minardi because his talent would be recognized instantly and he'd move up to a better car. That's just the way it works it every sport. You want all cars equal apparently. I noticed you didn't reply to any of the quotes I gave from Stewart who thinks completely the opposite of you. He also said things weren't any different in '71 then they were in 2002. No comment? David G Fisher

"Damien Smith" <[email hidden]> writes: > I see what you're getting at but I think F1 is just as much about cars as it > is about drivers - if not more so. I think you're forgetting that the Ferrari was quite a bit below par when MS joined them. while it's obviously true that the car is the reason MS is so fast, it's almost equally obvious that MS is the reason the car is so fast. -- Gunnar Cougar#02748 #31 SUCKS#015 Tupperware MC#002 DoD#0x1B DoDRT#003 DoD:CT#4,8 Kibo�: 2 "a language is a dialect with an army and a navy"

Doug Ellison wrote:

Quoted text (10 lines)

> "Joachim Trensz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:avjl4d$f5a75$[email hidden]... > : You'll have to spend up to ?500.- to get a fairly well equipped racing sim > based on RL. > > There are no hard numbers. We dont actually know if it'll be �50 or �500. > > But you're right - it's not for your counterstrike fragmeister teenager > > Doug

Of course there are no hard numbers. This is the West Brothers we're talking about. Kings of the vague, vapor and everything intangible.

"David G Fisher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>... > You said that the driver makes little difference in modern F1. The 19-4 > advantage for MS over RB the past two years completely proves otherwise. > That's what. Ralf Schumacher having as many wins as Barrichello, and four > times as many as Montoya is very significant as well. So that'll be 3 more wins than Montoya, then. Very significant <g>. What's the deal with belittling JPM and rating RS so highly? FWIW of the two drivers, I reckon only JPM has a championship in him. RS is a bit of a DC IMO. I think Coulthard is competent and very quick on his day, but can't put a season run together. Don't think either DC or RS has the mental capability. Here's the thing: ONLY TIME WILL TELL. And I am more that prepared to eat humble pie. Let me say I rate MS extrememly highly as a driver. But I don't like him... So long as he has number one status in the team and has effectively a co-driver to help him along the way, his "records" mean little to me. He may well have hit the targets he's hit without the help, but the team's structure diminishes their relevence to me. I remember an interview with Johnny Herbert - when he joined Bennetton it was all smiles, but as soon as he started posting laptimes close to MS the "shutters came down". From that point on there was a one way flow of information, and it wasn't from MS to JH. > Irvine is an excellent driver who is about to retire, but he had his chance > to beat MS and he couldn't. He constantly says MS is the best, and doesn't > feel bad (and shouldn't) about doing so. According to EI, MS was the best, followed my EI (uh-huh), then the rest. What's he gonna say? He was thrashed. He wouldn't say that the driver who had done that was merely pretty good. > That he couldn't beat MS proves > once again that the driver does make a big difference. Yes, JV has wasted > some time in his career, but there were also talented drivers in EVERY > single era who wasted time in weaker cars. As Damien alluded to, fading > memories make the "Good ole days" seem different than they really were. Ask > Stewart about '71. The driver can, of course, make a difference within his own team. There are always gonna be faster and slower teams, but there's less scope for driving ability to shine past the limitations of the car IMO. Semi-auto gears, traction control, these things take away from a drivers ability to rise above his competitors. > Of course MS wouldn't spend his career in a Minardi because his talent would > be recognized instantly and he'd move up to a better car. We have no way of knowing this. > That's just the > way it works it every sport. You want all cars equal apparently. I know you weren't addressing me, but, yes, I prefer to watch one-make series. I couldn't give a monkey's about the actual technology of the cars. Technology showcase, my arse. I wanna watch motor racing... > I noticed > you didn't reply to any of the quotes I gave from Stewart who thinks > completely the opposite of you. He also said things weren't any different in > '71 then they were in 2002. No comment? Stewart was talking about domination in sport, not how much difference a driver can make. I was 2 in '71 so don't know, but perhaps Stewart was the best driver in the best car, hence domination. Had Stewart been in a lesser car, and a lesser driver in the top car of the time, Stewart may well have been able to claw back some of the disadvantage through his driving talents. More so than would be possible in a similar situation today. Please note that at no point above did I say that drivers of yesteryear were any better than todays drivers. Nor did I imply that driving an F1 car of today is in any way easy or easier than it used to be. Regards, Mark

Internet User wrote:

Quoted text (10 lines)

> > Doug Ellison wrote: > > There are no hard numbers. We dont actually know if it'll be £50 or £500. > > > > But you're right - it's not for your counterstrike fragmeister teenager > > > > Doug > > Of course there are no hard numbers. This is the West Brothers we're > talking about. Kings of the vague, vapor and everything intangible.

Says a man without the integrity to post under his real name!

Gerry Aitken wrote:

Quoted text (15 lines)

> Internet User wrote: > >>Doug Ellison wrote: >> >>>There are no hard numbers. We dont actually know if it'll be �50 or �500. >>> >>>But you're right - it's not for your counterstrike fragmeister teenager >>> >>>Doug >> >>Of course there are no hard numbers. This is the West Brothers we're >>talking about. Kings of the vague, vapor and everything intangible. > > > Says a man without the integrity to post under his real name!

I will be releasing my name sometime in Q4. I will only release my first name to a select few at first. This will be considered a "beta" release. Following that I will release an expansion pack. This may or may not consist of the entire spelling of my middle name. Sometime after that I will be releasing my last name. This will be an advanced expansion pack that will typically only be purchased by power or professinal users. In the meantime I plan on marketing an entire line of stuffed pigs with an embroidered logo along with silk wings. The logo will read "Racing Legends... When pigs fly".

"Internet User" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Gerry Aitken wrote: > > Internet User wrote: > > > >>Doug Ellison wrote: > >> > >>>There are no hard numbers. We dont actually know if it'll be �50 or�500.

Quoted text (20 lines)

> >>> > >>>But you're right - it's not for your counterstrike fragmeister teenager > >>> > >>>Doug > >> > >>Of course there are no hard numbers. This is the West Brothers we're > >>talking about. Kings of the vague, vapor and everything intangible. > > > > > > Says a man without the integrity to post under his real name! > > I will be releasing my name sometime in Q4. I will only release my > first name to a select few at first. This will be considered a "beta" > release. Following that I will release an expansion pack. This may or > may not consist of the entire spelling of my middle name. Sometime > after that I will be releasing my last name. This will be an advanced > expansion pack that will typically only be purchased by power or > professinal users. In the meantime I plan on marketing an entire line > of stuffed pigs with an embroidered logo along with silk wings. The > logo will read "Racing Legends... When pigs fly".

:-)

"Internet User" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Gerry Aitken wrote: > > Internet User wrote: > > > >>Doug Ellison wrote: > >> > >>>There are no hard numbers. We dont actually know if it'll be �50 or�500.

Quoted text (20 lines)

> >>> > >>>But you're right - it's not for your counterstrike fragmeister teenager > >>> > >>>Doug > >> > >>Of course there are no hard numbers. This is the West Brothers we're > >>talking about. Kings of the vague, vapor and everything intangible. > > > > > > Says a man without the integrity to post under his real name! > > I will be releasing my name sometime in Q4. I will only release my > first name to a select few at first. This will be considered a "beta" > release. Following that I will release an expansion pack. This may or > may not consist of the entire spelling of my middle name. Sometime > after that I will be releasing my last name. This will be an advanced > expansion pack that will typically only be purchased by power or > professinal users. In the meantime I plan on marketing an entire line > of stuffed pigs with an embroidered logo along with silk wings. The > logo will read "Racing Legends... When pigs fly".

Woah ! my sides are hurting now, love the Silk pigs bit especially.

In article <[email hidden]>, Internet User <[email hidden]> writes:

Quoted text (11 lines)

>> Says a man without the integrity to post under his real name! > >I will be releasing my name sometime in Q4. I will only release my >first name to a select few at first. This will be considered a "beta" >release. Following that I will release an expansion pack. This may or >may not consist of the entire spelling of my middle name. Sometime >after that I will be releasing my last name. This will be an advanced >expansion pack that will typically only be purchased by power or >professinal users. In the meantime I plan on marketing an entire line >of stuffed pigs with an embroidered logo along with silk wings. The >logo will read "Racing Legends... When pigs fly".

Ok, that was pretty funny...<g> Eldred -- Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett GPLRank:-0.381 N2002 Rank:+17.59 Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you with experience... Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.