rec.autos.simulators

David, from our customer database we took the names of all those who had
bought motor-sports and flight-simulator games that could be played
on-line or head-to-head or through a dedicated LAN arrangement.
This amounted to over 400 customers.

Of the total, (I can't recall actual figures) the vast majority used the
Internet at either work or home or both.  That is, they were familiar
with the Internet and what it offered.

The vast majority of buyers did not game on-line and expressed no
interest in doing so.

Now, the city in which I live has the highest number of computer users
in the country (per capita) and one of the highest ratios in the western
world).  Naturally, this statistic is brought about by this being a
government town and people using computers everyday in the workplace.

Which brings us back to the start:  when they relax, they want to forget
that the human race exists!  They've had enough of dealing with people
for 8 or more hours and just want to fall into the realms of fantasy and
use their imaginations for a while, without being encumbered by having
to cater to others.

--
Regards,
Bruce.
----------

On Tue, 25 Aug 1998 15:04:52 -0400, "David G Fisher"

That may be what we're force fed and what the magazine's say, but it's
not what I see and hear. Looking at a U.S., of the top 20 games listed
2 have dedicated online play and two have some rudimentary support -
16 don't. It may be the future, the medium to long term future, but it
isn't now. The fact that it is now for us should't blind us to the
fact that it isn't now for the vast majority.

You can race AI as well as you can race humans - in fact AI are much
better than most humans driving-wise. It's simply a perception or an
issue of personal satisfaction that it's better to beat humans. Racing
is racing - I could provide Jackie Stewart in AI form and it would
_still_ be better and more satisfying to race and beat your best mate
online - that's human nature and achievement of personal goals.

We agree to disagree there. I don't think it would make an iota of
difference to MTM2 or CPR sales if they couldn't be raced online, MS
is just looking to the future as they are doing with IE. Why fight a
strong opponent when you can kill off a weak one?

Cheers!
John

On Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:59:20 -0400, "David G Fisher"

Well, in MTM2 and CPR you can't jump in and out of the session
whenever you like and you can't have 20 simultaneous players mixing
LAN and internet, but otherwise I suppose it's the same ;-)

GPL does take this to a new level, which is good since others will
surely (hopefully) follow.

Cheers!
John

I would disagree with this pretty strongly.

It would, but only because it was GP3, not because it was online
capable. Anyway, GPL is online capable also, extremely capable :-)

Cheers!
John

On Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:19:26 -0400, "David G Fisher"

Hi David,

The difference is slightly more - in GPL I can hop in, turn some laps,
quit out, select a different car, go back, quit out of GPL altogether,
drop the connection, connect with a new ISP, reload GPL and STILL go
back and join the session - as long as the race hasn't started I can
join or quit anytime I like, even switch the PC off and go have my
dinner.

It is pretty useful - as you can easily imagine, any person who gets a
latency boot can hop straight back in again.

Cheers!
John

On Thu, 27 Aug 1998 09:03:14 -0500, Pat Dotson

QuakeWorld is a version of Quake that works online, essentially a
client program that hooks up over the net with servers that you join.
You can hop in and out of games on these servers anytime you like,
provided the host/administrator allows this. It's not independent of
the game in that it accesses the same maps, graphics, etc, but it is a
separate EXE with additional options for reducing latency etc.

Every client would still have their 'phone, modem and ISP, that
doesn't eliminate it. As with any other online game, the host should
be whoever in your group has the best blend of fast system, good
bandwidth and low latency.

Cheers!
John

MS have the where-withall to do so because fast, on-line activity is
extremely important to them for their corporate business.  If their
*** division benefits by their emphasis on such technology for
business, well and good. (However, they still contract out for their
games development).
And we all know Mr.Gates' enthusiasm for the "information super-highway"
ideal.

Not all *** developers have the same arrangement, where one section
of their business benefits from another section (business software vs
*** software).

--
Regards,
Bruce.
----------
The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club  is located at:-
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

If the AI was that accurate then I'd rather have a go at beating JS,
thanks.

--
Regards,
Bruce.
----------

   Why?

   Ok then, replace GP3 with ICR2 or GP2 if you like. Or any decent open wheel sim (are
there others?. F1RS - maybe.) Or any decent racing *sim* for that matter. Like the up and
coming Professional Sports Car Sim!
    However, you seem to be saying that GPL will be multiplayable internationally. What's
your experience playing against others in Europe and the U.S.? And how many drivers at
once? Theoretically I have my doubts about all this. Especially from here in Aus :(

   Untrue! OnOffline, as described on Christer's site, would have *ZERO* warping. The
concept, simply put, is this ;

    You are basically having an AI race but the data recieved from incoming data packets
determines the speed of your opponents ie if an incoming packet shows that a car should be
a few metres ahead of where it is, it speeds it up a bit. And vice versa. The AI controls
the CCs when they are in close contact with you with collision detection on. If you are
ahead of a car that wants to be further forward than it currently is then it will be given
more power, traction, aggression, etc. This will continue to increase if the incoming
packet indicates that it is increasingly falling further behind where it should be. (This
would represent the case where a driver on another computer passed you and was pulling
away). Anyway, as you can see, no warping here. Even if there is packet loss or delays,
etc, the computer simply takes over. Any type of decent connection works here!

   Hmmmmm. Maybe. For now. For a little while. Once you grow accustomed to online ***
and even offline sim racing leagues, there's no going back to competing against
*predictable, unable to impove/adapt* AI. I think once people get a taste of online ***
then nothing else will suffice. I remember when I first got on the net around Xmas 1996.
My computer increased in value 1000 fold easily. Remember the difference? I was a Command
& Conquer freak for months! :) I'll never forget sitting there in awe of the fact that I
was talking with people from all over the globe and then able to play this RTS game
against a totally unpredictable, thinking/adapting on the fly, human opponent. No
comparison to playing the computer at all, which quickly becomes a matter of not if you
will win, but how quickly you can!
   In fact, I have been racing in offline leagues for just on 12 months. Thousands of laps
at over 30 different tracks. I have always loved racing sims but have never even come
close to completing an entire season against the AI. Even though GP2 and ICR2 can be made
as fast as you like, there's still something moronic and dull about it all IMO.

  A few things. Most AI I have ever seen, whether in racing sims or whatever, becomes
predictable real fast. Even if they make the AI be a little unpredictable and perhaps run
into you, it's like "Oh, the way the computer crunched the numbers there made the car run
into me!" Not my idea of fun. Besides, abusing the AI has no effect in my experience, but
then again nor does abusing most humans, so maybe you do have a point! Still, I prefer to
abuse real people rather than my computer. My shrink says this is healthier too! :)

The concept also means that the cars do not represent what the driver
is actually doing, and the car has to perform unlike it would in real
life (in order to move forward or backward from perceived position to
actual position). It compromises realism against latency much as Quake
does.

Cheers!
John

Several reasons, which I started to write out then realised it was
going to take ages and decided I couldn't be bothered!

I don't care if TOCA2 utterly kicked ass online, the rest of the game
has to be there before it will be a success. I personally don't see
online play as a huge selling point so far, but I _do_ see online play
as something hugely important for a company to be developing strongly
just now, so that the major issues will be ironed out by the time it
_is_ a big selling point.

I have a lot of experience playing against others in Europe and also
intercontinental racing across to the U.S.. Numbers are difficult,
because there's not all that many testers just now, and tweaking is
still ongoing. We've easily had Europeans online with Americans in the
same race though, and I suspect that Australia should also be possible
at least to Asia and the west coast of the U.S., if not further. All
depends upon the quality of the connections as with any internet game
- if your pings are fine then you will be able to play. I've had some
incredibly playable races all the way across the U.S. and the Atlantic
(some 10 hours flying time) despite poor pings, so it is certainly a
possibility to race from Australia. Failing that you'll have to race
other Antipodeans, getting your ass kicked by Dave Mansell all the
time :-)

Cheers!
John

Naturally, but my point was that even if the computer was a perfect
sim driver, capable of abstract thought and Schumacher like reasoning
to punt you off and snatch the championship, it's still only a
computer. Most people would rather race their mates, and that's where
the perception of "human is better than AI". It isn't empirically any
"better", it's just more satisfying (although it could be argued that
that makes it better!).

I'm not going to mention the subject of your abuse, that's your
business... :-)

Cheers!
John