Jed I'm curious

Jed, I no nothing about programming and I am just a little curious. As far as a track editor for nascar or indycar2 is concerned. Is it not possible because there is information you just don't have access to or Is it just such a big job that it wouldn't be worth the time to do or Are there as I write this little men in the ba***t of The Pits working on such an editor. I am sure I speak for everyone who say great job on all the work you guys have done. John

Hey c'mon lay off the guy. Look at what he's given us already, just let things develop at their own pace ;) Hassling will only hinder things. Cheers! John _________________________________ __ _____| |_____ __ _________| |__| :| John Wallace | |__| |_________ \ :| |::| :| Team WW Racing TSW | |::| | / > :| |::| :|_________________________________| |::| | < / :|__|::|____:/ -=Ayrton Senna=- \.____|::|__| \ /_______:/ \::/ Racing is in my ***, it's part of me \::/ \._______\

>Hey c'mon lay off the guy. Look at what he's given us already, just let >things develop at their own pace ;) Hassling will only hinder things. Sorry! Guess I'm just getting frustrated floundering around in MIP files all day! ;-) I think at some point its going to get too much for Papyrus and someone's going to have to give us the file specs! Jed The Pits www.ukps.com/thepits www.fwb.gulf.net/~jkohl/thepits

What's Papyrus' problem? I thought Nascar was totally dull until I got the ICR2NCAR thing. Now I've dug it back out. All these editors are prolonging the life of their games. They're mad, mad I tell you, MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD! -- --------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------

>I think at some point its going to get too much for Papyrus and >someone's going to have to give us the file specs! What's their story, why won't they release them? ICR2 and Nascar would both get far more popular if there were public-domain tracks available on the net. Everybody loves these games but the same tracks over and over get boring after a while - why's that so hard for them to understand? Joe

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>>I think at some point its going to get too much for Papyrus and >>someone's going to have to give us the file specs! >What's their story, why won't they release them? ICR2 and Nascar would >both get far more popular if there were public-domain tracks available >on the net. Everybody loves these games but the same tracks over and >over get boring after a while - why's that so hard for them to >understand? >Joe

Hmmm........maybe we should remind 'em of how popular Doom is with everybody and his brother coming up with extra levels for it. They should realize that when people have some input in a game, they're gonna like it a lot more. If there were as many ICR2 and NASCAR tracks available as there are Doom wads.........makes my mouth water just thinkin' about it.

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> >>I think at some point its going to get too much for Papyrus and > >>someone's going to have to give us the file specs! > >What's their story, why won't they release them? ICR2 and Nascar would > >both get far more popular if there were public-domain tracks available > >on the net. Everybody loves these games but the same tracks over and > >over get boring after a while - why's that so hard for them to > >understand? > >Joe > Hmmm........maybe we should remind 'em of how popular Doom is with > everybody and his brother coming up with extra levels for it. They > should realize that when people have some input in a game, they're > gonna like it a lot more. If there were as many ICR2 and NASCAR tracks > available as there are Doom wads.........makes my mouth water just > thinkin' about it.

Yeah, can you imagine it... web sites chock full of new tracks, and when someone writes an important one [such as the big Nurburgring] everyone will flock to get it. With all these tracks flowing around, no one will be able to resist buying a papyrus sim!! Competitions could be held on new tracks, and in turn that would probably boost the popularity of that Hawaii games network thing. $$$$$ for Papyrus just waiting to be taken! -- --------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------

DB> What's Papyrus' problem? I thought Nascar was totally dull until I DB> got the ICR2 NCAR thing. Now I've dug it back out. All these editors DB> are prolonging the life of their games. Me too - I've been enjoying Nascar again - rolling those trucks through the corkscrew or trying to sort out a huge powersteered slide around the first corner at Cleveland is fun - revived the game and making me consider the track pack to have a look at Sears Point. So, if you're reading this Rick Genter, remember a few threads last year about modular front-ends, track pack add-ons, etc being a popular idea that would be worth persuing..... If Papyrus had said these, the track editor, etc would be along in '96, people would have sat there, waiting......look at the effect Crammond delays have..... Instead, we had "it's not possible" and the like.....so people like Gerhard have done it themselves......an opportunity for Papyrus lost. Cheers! --- * RM 1.3 U0414 * One day, Son, this space will be filled by witty taglines.

>Hmmm........maybe we should remind 'em of how popular Doom is with >everybody and his brother coming up with extra levels for it. They >should realize that when people have some input in a game, they're >gonna like it a lot more. If there were as many ICR2 and NASCAR tracks >available as there are Doom wads.........makes my mouth water just >thinkin' about it. Exactly. A bit of an aside, I bought Need for Speed yesterday (and a Thrustmaster T2 steering wheel - yahoo!), and one of the deciding factors is that I heard there is a track editor on the net, and there will no doubt be a lot of tracks soon. Need For Speed is a _fantastic_ game, BTW, I'm surprised I haven't heard more about it. Of all the arcade racers, this one has the most realistic, heart-pounding, pedal-to-the-metal kind of feel. With the wheel/pedals combo I can use real-world driving techniques to recover from skids and so on. And it has superb built-in tracks. Over all, very impressive. Joe

>Yeah, can you imagine it... web sites chock full of new tracks, and when someone writes an important one >[such as the big Nurburgring] everyone will flock to get it. With all these tracks flowing around, no one >will be able to resist buying a papyrus sim!! Competitions could be held on new tracks, and in turn that >would probably boost the popularity of that Hawaii games network thing. $$$$$ for Papyrus just waiting to >be taken! I wrote and e-mail to Rick G about the marketing possibilities of supplying extra tracks, even made up ones to the market. I also suggested a common file format for track data plus an auxillary NAS/ICR2 specific file. That way, any track would work on any sim. I can't think what Papyrus are currently work on unless its a GT endurance game. Mind you, if they did do it, you wouldn't get Daytona because of licensing. Sounds familiar?? If your going to lose the 'main' race of a series, its hardly worth doing. I mean, Indycar without the Indy? You could compensate by stick a few more tracks in. Hey guys! Listen, you can't go on 're-doing' Nascar and Indycar forever. Yes ICR2 is better than ICR1 but the tracks are the same. Like I said, forget licensing and work on new tracks or a 'usable' track editor. If you don't do something soon, things are going to start to burn out. Jed The Pits www.ukps.com/thepits www.fwb.gulf.net/~jkohl/thepits

>Like I said, forget licensing and work on new tracks or a 'usable' >track editor. If you don't do something soon, things are going to >start to burn out. I don't know if this is at all possible or not, but has anyone looked at writing a track converter for Need For Speed <==> ICR2? Not only are there some great tracks in NFS, there is a track editor under development (beta version available on the net). So if we had a NFS/ICR2 converter we would also get a track editor that could be used for ICR2. Joe

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>>Like I said, forget licensing and work on new tracks or a 'usable' >>track editor. If you don't do something soon, things are going to >>start to burn out. >I don't know if this is at all possible or not, but has anyone looked >at writing a track converter for Need For Speed <==> ICR2? Not only >are there some great tracks in NFS, there is a track editor under >development (beta version available on the net). So if we had a >NFS/ICR2 converter we would also get a track editor that could be used >for ICR2.

This is almost impossible because ICR2 and NFS use a completely different way of track description. ICR2 still uses 3d modelling, whereas NFS uses a bitmap oriented definition. However, it would be possible to use Nascar tracks in ICR(2). I tried this. There only needs to be some converting done between the two programs and the tracks can be exchanged.

>This is almost impossible because ICR2 and NFS use a completely >different way of track description. ICR2 still uses 3d modelling, >whereas NFS uses a bitmap oriented definition. However, it would be >possible to use Nascar tracks in ICR(2). I tried this. There only >needs to be some converting done between the two programs and the >tracks can be exchanged. I've tried the Nascar tracks too - I love taking the indycars out on Talledega! It's a shame about NFS/ICR2 - NFS has some incredible courses that I'd love to try the indycars on (not to mention taking NFS's Ferrari out on Talledega). Joe

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>>I think at some point its going to get too much for Papyrus and >>someone's going to have to give us the file specs! >What's their story, why won't they release them? ICR2 and Nascar would >both get far more popular if there were public-domain tracks available >on the net. Everybody loves these games but the same tracks over and >over get boring after a while - why's that so hard for them to >understand?

Boring?! Bl00dy hell, I wish I had as much spare time as you to spend on these tracks until they get boring! d8-))) But I AM keen to know what Papyrus actually think of these new utilities. AND whether or not we'll see the track file formats in the public domain. Stuart -- Stuart Booth ... Somewhere in Epsom, England, UK. You are welcome to distribute this message on the Microsoft Network. Why do some silly folk say you can't do so with their messages?

: I wrote and e-mail to Rick G about the marketing possibilities of : supplying extra tracks, even made up ones to the market. There is no money in selling extra tracks. The Nascar Track probably cost more to produce than it brought in. : Like I said, forget licensing and work on new tracks or a 'usable' : track editor. If you don't do something soon, things are going to : start to burn out. Rick has mentioned this many times, so I don't understand why you guys still can't grasp it. Designing a track is not the simple task you make it out to be. The tools used are complicated and very user-unfriendly. Your average JoeBob Nascar fan just wouldn't be able to figure out how to use the tools, to put it nicely. The only alternative is to spend millions of dollars redesigning the tools to make them intuitive. So if you folks want to scrape up a couple of Mil, perhaps you could persude Papyrus to do this. Mike_l

>Boring?! >Bl00dy hell, I wish I had as much spare time as you to spend on these >tracks until they get boring! d8-))) Well, I'm not saying I don't still enjoy the games. Every Papyrus product I've ever bought has been well-worth the money, add-on products or no add-on products. But I'm a junky for novelty, what can I say. Ditto. Joe

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> Exactly. A bit of an aside, I bought Need for Speed yesterday (and a > Thrustmaster T2 steering wheel - yahoo!), and one of the deciding > factors is that I heard there is a track editor on the net, and there > will no doubt be a lot of tracks soon. > Need For Speed is a _fantastic_ game, BTW, I'm surprised I haven't > heard more about it. Of all the arcade racers, this one has the most > realistic, heart-pounding, pedal-to-the-metal kind of feel. With the > wheel/pedals combo I can use real-world driving techniques to recover > from skids and so on. And it has superb built-in tracks. Over all, > very impressive.

Joe, I couldn't agree with you more (about Need For Speed)! I'll be posting any/all NFS tracks that I can find on my NFS page... (see sig for url). Enjoy and be sure to sign up for the modem game registry! Doug -- ===== From the desk of Doug Burg, diehard *Cowboys* fan since the 70's HTTP://members.aol.com/speed1racr/html/nfs_main.htm "Remember: you can make $$$ or you can make excuses but you can't make BOTH"

Actually, there is a train of thought that suggests that some players would prefer a _limited_ number of tracks, so you get to practise a few specific tracks in more depth. For example, Sega constructed 9 circuits for the Virtua Racing arcade machine but only included 3 of them in the finished version (this has been their philosophy ever since). In any case, there is no point in Papyrus throwing $$s at a circuit designer - it would be a commercial flop as the amount of input required for a home user to create a circuit (including the AI, of course) would be massive. Few people (except for a small handfull on r.a.s) would be willing to invest the time or effort in designing such circuits. Fraser

>Rick has mentioned this many times, so I don't understand why you guys still >can't grasp it. Designing a track is not the simple task you make it out to >be. The tools used are complicated and very user-unfriendly. Your average >JoeBob Nascar fan just wouldn't be able to figure out how to use the tools, > to put it nicely. I don't know if you've been reading this thread from the start, but I do understand the implications and how difficult it is. My background is in 3D design using CAD systems and simplifying data so that it can be bougt into software and used in a realtime model. I never used one program to do this and had a mixture of commercial packages and custom written tools to produce the final product. Yes, the majority of users wont want to or be able to create tracks and there is no way you could create a simple, modular design program. My point, and this is personal, is that we've had ICR1 and 2 and Nacsar and my assumtion is that they are working on a different type of sim or producing Nascar 2. I felt that with ICR2 that, yes, it was a better physics model better looking and tidier, but I already had all the tracks and was craving something new. I would liked to of seen some different tracks with ICR2, maybe just one or two say. Or if they want to put the hassle on to us and make some money, why not publish a book with the track file specs in it? Jed The Pits www.ukps.com/thepits www.fwb.gulf.net/~jkohl/thepits

Oh please! So they just did it to amuse themselves one afternoon? They are a business. and if they did this and never turned a profit than not a very good one. Either they made money or they should charge more (or less and get more sales). I don't understand why YOU can't grasp it - when you consider what's already been managed WITHOUT being told any of the track specs, it's pretty obvious that you're SEVERELY underestimating the intelligence of people racing these sims. The average fan doesn't need to understand it, just a few people who will make good tracks. Just like the car designers, the wheat will soon become separated from the chaff (sorry to all you chaffs out there!). John _________________________________ __ _____| |_____ __ _________| |__| :| John Wallace | |__| |_________ \ :| |::| :| Team WW Racing TSW | |::| | / > :| |::| :|_________________________________| |::| | < / :|__|::|____:/ -=Ayrton Senna=- \.____|::|__| \ /_______:/ \::/ Racing is in my ***, it's part of me \::/ \._______\

>Rick has mentioned this many times, so I don't understand why you guys still >can't grasp it. Designing a track is not the simple task you make it out to >be. The tools used are complicated and very user-unfriendly. Your average >JoeBob Nascar fan just wouldn't be able to figure out how to use the tools, > to put it nicely. True, but he doesn't have to - if there's ten people on the internet designing tracks (there must be ten bright power-user tech types among the legions of Nascar and Indycar users) then JoeBob will have all the tracks he'll ever need. All he needs to do is download them from the net. No, there is another alternative, which I'd like to propose to Papyrus if anyone's listening here. I was in an identical situation with some mapping software we developed and sold. Users wanted the map importing/configuration program but we didn't want it out there because we knew we couldn't support it. So we only distributed it to _qualified_ users, and even then with an explicit license agreement that we were supporting niether this program nor the data produced with it. Seems like a good middle ground, which today wouldn't be that hard to setup. Start with a simple survey form on a web page to gather info on peoples' capabilities, follow up to a couple dozen of the good ones with one phone call, and if they sound good and agree to the license, off they go. It's not as is Papyrus isn't going to benefit from this. There are certain customers who are *** racers, deeply into the Papyrus games because of the realism, and I suppose it wouldn't make much difference to these folks. But there's a lot more folks out there too, folks like me who are just racing junkies. I buy most new racing games that come out, and no matter how good they are, sooner or later I get bored with the tracks. I track editor (or the availability of public domain tracks on the net) would extend the life and value of the games immeasurably for me. Joe