Papy/Sierra: Remember that sim called ICR2?? You really should finish it..

Papy/Sierra, In mid-november '95, you released a game called IndyCar Racing II.. It is now the beginning of March '97, and you still haven't finished this sim. Why?? It was terrible, so you release a patch mid-july '96, still not completing it.. Throughout 1996, we heard so much about using the hawaii engine and code to port to ICR2 for network support, where is it? ICR2 and N1 use the same engine AFAIK, so it doesn't seem like it would be too hard for you to make "Alaska".. Also, there is still many bugs in the game, some new since the patch, some that have been there all along.. Now I know you are gonna want $50 more from everyone for ICR3, so why bother finishing ICR2, right?? It shouldn't be that way.. I think before you release your little 60's F1 sim and your strategy game, you should finish past projects.. Jim, since none of the ICR2 boys read the NG anymore, will you please forward this message to them?? Thanks... David Otterness

: Papy/Sierra, : In mid-november '95, you released a game called IndyCar Racing II.. It : is now the beginning of March '97, and you still haven't finished this : sim. Why?? It was terrible, so you release a patch mid-july '96, still : not completing it.. Throughout 1996, we heard so much about using the : hawaii engine and code to port to ICR2 for network support, where is it? <snip> I was just thinking the same thing. With the new interest generated by the Rendition version, we need the final big bugs squashed in ICR2. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

I believe that based on the announcement by CART regarding an exclusive software license with Sony, Papyrus has lost all business justification for working on subsequent IndyCar releases/patches/utilities/fixes. You can read the news yourself in the news section of www.cart.com and I believe the release was approximately one month ago under a heading regarding a new marketing consultant agreement. Speculation (please note that word) several weeks ago was that Papyrus did the rendition work on ICR2 in order to get some experience for the N2 rendition work. Unfortunately, this probably is the last ICR2 update we'll see by Papyrus before the Sony contract take effect. If someone from Papyrus would care to validate, dispute, or simply provide a "no comment" to this post it would save us all a lot of worry. Cheers, Pooch O-iiiii-O

>If someone from Papyrus would care to validate, dispute, or simply >provide a "no comment" to this post it would save us all a lot of >worry. Hey, I'm always able to throw in a "no comment..." but that doesn't really do you any good in this case... Sony has the rights to Cart, as you mention, and I don't imagine that an IRL sim would be profitable, given the current state of the IRL. (If an IRL sim would be profitable, I'd imagine that Sony would have already secured or at least attempted to secure the rights to the IRL, and to my knowledge they have not... :-) ) From the above, you can probably determine whether or not we have an IRL sim on our plate right now. ---Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus

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>Papy/Sierra, >In mid-november '95, you released a game called IndyCar Racing II.. It >is now the beginning of March '97, and you still haven't finished this >sim. Why?? It was terrible, so you release a patch mid-july '96, still >not completing it.. Throughout 1996, we heard so much about using the >hawaii engine and code to port to ICR2 for network support, where is it? >ICR2 and N1 use the same engine AFAIK, so it doesn't seem like it would >be too hard for you to make "Alaska".. Also, there is still many bugs in >the game, some new since the patch, some that have been there all >along.. Now I know you are gonna want $50 more from everyone for ICR3, >so why bother finishing ICR2, right?? It shouldn't be that way.. I think >before you release your little 60's F1 sim and your strategy game, you >should finish past projects.. Jim, since none of the ICR2 boys read the >NG anymore, will you please forward this message to them?? Thanks...

While I agree that ICR2 still has some problems, I don't remember ever hearing anything about an online system for ICR. I do wish they would fix the problem with modem racing in the Rendition version, but I doubt that will happen. Dave Sparks IWCCCARS Project: http://www.theuspits.com/iwcccars Late Night League: http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html Hawaii Handle: davids

Sorry to dissapoint you on this one, but Papyrus has no plans to update, or even expand, current and future versions of ICR2. :( Best Regards, Marc Marc J. Nelson Sim Racing News - USA http://members.aol.com/simracing

1.) Sierra see's the need for nother indy sim 2.) They licence IRL 3.) With that comes indianapolis for nascar 2 Just a thought. I guese you never know. -- --Kai Fuller Senior Writer of IOR (previously INR) GO Thunderbirds!!!!!!! (WHL)

Sorry about the double quoting, but I purged the original article before replying.

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>>Papy/Sierra, >>In mid-november '95, you released a game called IndyCar Racing II.. It >>is now the beginning of March '97, and you still haven't finished this >>sim. Why?? It was terrible, so you release a patch mid-july '96, still >>not completing it.. Throughout 1996, we heard so much about using the >>hawaii engine and code to port to ICR2 for network support, where is it?

From whom did you hear of our plans to use the hawaii engine for N2. By that time, I believe it was clear to all Papyrus employees who should be talking about such things, that hawaii was a NASCAR-only product. There are currently no plans for an ICR3. Define finish please? Should id go back and add multiplayer over IPX to Wolfenstein 3D? Probably not. By the same token, I don't see any reason to continue to pour development money into ICR2 for no return. ICR2 as it current exists is a finished product as far as I can tell. Sure it's not 100% perfect, and our latest NASCAR sim has some features that ICR2 lacks. However, that doesn't make ICR2 unfinished. It just makes it have less features than our latest product has. I'll do that, but I'm not sure it's going to change anything. ---Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus

>>I was just thinking the same thing. With the new interest generated by >>the Rendition version, we need the final big bugs squashed in ICR2. Lately I've gotten back in to ICR2 big-time. It is annoying that it isn't really done; because even as it is, there are some ways in which I like it best. Well, couldn't find this bit of news. I am curious about this, because I am not sure what it means. Psygnosis, originally with strong Sony ties, did a cool, although extremely un-papy-similar, F1 sim for playstation. If they would do an Indy sim, I would buy it. One of things Psygnosis seems to do better than Papy- they give their cars a much more solid, crisp, firmly-on-the-ground feel. As much as I love papy sims, I have to say that all their sims suffer from a mushy-car syndrome. This is mostly a problem on the tracks; on the ovals, once you are moving, it isn't such an issue. if you can tell more about this sony contract, please post. I looked a few months back (to november) in the News section of www.cart.com, couldn't find it.

I'm no more dissapointed than I was when Rick Genter said almost exactly this... I guess 3/4ths of a year ago. But I *am* dissapointed! I figure I'll still be racing ICR2 5 years from now... ya, I know, by then, we'll all have virtual***pits and 2 gigahertz 6-processor *** consoles. ANd I'll have replaced my 30th potentiometer in my T2 to race ICR2 on my antique DOS machine. I, after all, still occasionally pull out Indianapolis: the simulation. Is there any way I can finally throw out the manual (i.e., make the program stop asking me to prove I am the owner?!)

> I, after all, still occasionally pull out Indianapolis: the I did this too! Yep! Just find the Indianapolis track pack for the origional ICR and convert it to ICR2 format with that track converter. I would look at forsale newsgroups or bargain bins in stores or software re-sale shops. -- Header address intentionaly scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

Here's the address for the news release. It was in the January archived news section of www.cart.com: http://www.cart.com/ppg/news/ppg123972.html Papyrus has a deal to port NASCAR to the Sony Playstation, but seems to have no other plans for racing-related releases in conjunction with Sony at this time. After reading the news release at the above URL, I suggest re-reading the posts in this string and much of what was said will make more sense. Cheers, Pooch O-iiiii-O

My two cents here: There was a time when software developers never released patches. Products were released based on the best coding abilities of the development team within a certain product launch window, and the product was released, and then they moved on to the next product release. Sometimes that next product release was a follow-up, other times it was a different program altogether. As far as ICR2 is concerned, this is not a perfect program, but neither is Windows 3.11, which has been out for many years. Papyrus DID release a patch which fixed many of the problems with the original program. ICR2 lacks network support, but few games released at that time provided network support, and those that did were a lot simpler than ICR2. MOVE ON. Papyrus is releasing an historical F1 sim, which will probably have features that N2 doesn't, and then N3 will probably have features that F1Historical doesn't, and so on, and so on. IMHO, ICR2 (my favorite sim, despite the few shortcomings) will keep me busy for years, and is by far the best entertainment value I have EVER received (including the $3.00 I paid to see Star Wars in 1977.) Papyrus no longer has the rights to the CART series on which ICR2 is based, so they have no choice but to move on to other projects. I am certain that Papyrus' ability to create driving sims will continue to escalate at the amazing rate that it has since ICR1, and by the time I have kids I'll be getting concussions just from playing their latest release. (Just kidding Jim, please tell your developers to NOT include virtual-concussions in any sims.) Cheers, Pooch O-iiiii-O

says... Personally, I like Indycar 2 exactly the way it is. The rendition version screams on my machine, and it works great. So keep on rolling with the N2 patch, yeah, thats the ticket <BG> Richard Scott

: Define finish please? Should id go back and add multiplayer over IPX : to Wolfenstein 3D? Probably not. By the same token, I don't see any : reason to continue to pour development money into ICR2 for no return. : ICR2 as it current exists is a finished product as far as I can tell. : Sure it's not 100% perfect, and our latest NASCAR sim has some : features that ICR2 lacks. However, that doesn't make ICR2 unfinished. : It just makes it have less features than our latest product has. Jim, I'm not asking for any "new" features for ICR2, but... There are still some major bugs left in the last patch. Some which make certain tracks "unraceable". If I remember correctly AI cars drive in between the pit walls in Long Beach, enter and exit through the pit wall. The "yellow flag" bug was never really fixed. If this qualifies as a finished product, this bodes poorly for QA for N2 and future Sierra/Papyrus products. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

: >I was just thinking the same thing. With the new interest generated by : >the Rendition version, we need the final big bugs squashed in ICR2. : > : I believe that based on the announcement by CART regarding an : exclusive software license with Sony, Papyrus has lost all business : justification for working on subsequent IndyCar : releases/patches/utilities/fixes. You can read the news yourself in : the news section of www.cart.com and I believe the release was : approximately one month ago under a heading regarding a new marketing : consultant agreement. First, I believe Papyrus/Sierra can "fix" their broken code for ICR2 without violating any license agreements. I also think it is in Sierra/Papyrus' best interest to provide the cleanest & finished product as possible. Take a look at the number of people who are not planning on buying a GP3 if it does materialize. They are not happy with "broken" parts of GP2 and don't want to further promote "broken" software. There are still some major broken parts in ICR2 which totally destroy the "race-ability" of certain tracks. These are bugs, not missing features we are talking about here. As to Sony & CART's agreement. If you go back and read the announcement, I believe it said "exclusive _video_game_ rights". This could be read to mean that the "computer game platform" rights might still be available. But, not having read the official agreement this is pure speculation based on the "wording" of the announcement. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

>Papyrus no longer has the rights to the CART series on which ICR2 is >based, so they have no choice but to move on to other projects.... When I read the CART/Sony press release, it seemed a bit ambiguous. For instance, do "entertainment products" (I think that was the phrase) apply only to *games* on a *console*, or would that also apply to *simulations* on a *PC*? I guess I'm looking for definite word that Papyrus is out of the IndyCar business (that includes IRL, barely ;) for good. (Definite word as opposed to some of Jim's cryptic posts. We love ya' Jim, but you speak in an alien tongue at times! ;) Sad if its true, but I guess we've all got to move on... Papyrus to other racing venues and their IndyCar consumers to other software publishers. :( Before you send me UCE, I know what you're thinking... Did he complain to five or six postmasters last month? Now, you must ask yourself one question: "Do I feel lucky?" Well, do you, punk?

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> >If someone from Papyrus would care to validate, dispute, or simply > >provide a "no comment" to this post it would save us all a lot of > >worry. > Hey, I'm always able to throw in a "no comment..." but that doesn't > really do you any good in this case... > Sony has the rights to Cart, as you mention, and I don't imagine that > an IRL sim would be profitable, given the current state of the IRL. > (If an IRL sim would be profitable, I'd imagine that Sony would have > already secured or at least attempted to secure the rights to the IRL, > and to my knowledge they have not... :-) ) > From the above, you can probably determine whether or not we have an > IRL sim on our plate right now. > ---Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus

Fine, it would still be nice to have the Rendition version of ICR2 fixed. You know, have the "save race" actually work, fix the drivers helmets so they don't all look like the last scene from "The Fly". I would assume that you still have the rights to your existing product. How about fixing these problems, throw in a fix to allow using the win95 paintshop with the existing carsets, and a track editor. We'd all buy the "upgraded" version of ICR2. Mike

Well, it looks as though the smoke-screen is begining to clear...I jusy got some news from a reliable source (still rumor, not documented fact) that Papyrus was out-maneuvered again - this time, on the Indy-front. All of Papyrus' rights to IndyCar (or CART) will have expired by Dec of this year, so no new patches, upgrades, etc. Basically, what you've all been posting anyway. This could be the reason they're doing a '67-68 F1 sim, and a stadium-truck type thing...No one else wants it, and may have been the only thing they could get the rights to...at least, the only ones they've actively pursued. Papyrus needs to take a hard-look at their marketing group...At one time, they were the leaders in this area of racing sims...sort of the locomotive on a fast-moving freight train. Now they're simply the caboose. :( Marc J. Nelson Sim Racing News - USA http://members.aol.com/simracing

Papyrus has soiled the nest with Tony George, so I don't think we'll be seeing Indianapolis anytime soon... Marc J. Nelson Sim Racing News - USA

<...> Thanks I've got NASCAR on the playstation; I love it, while I know many scream about framrates. Fact is, there are things about it's rendering that I don't even see in N2- particularly regarding driving line rendering. But I don't think the AI is as good; I see less attacking from behind than in the PC based NASCARs. Other than that, it is very similar. Now, a few months back I was begging Jim to push for an ICR2 port to Playstation... I never did seem to get any replies on that. Perhaps this Sony thing alread had taken this possibility out. Playstation still isn't as good as a PC for auto simmers, but with Psygnosis's F1 and NASCAR by Papy, and maybe even Andretti Racing, it shows just how amazing it's early attempts at it are. The simmer aesthetic just isn't there yet in the console world... it is still about arcadish stuff. But I look forward to the day that the Nintendo64 would have a Papy sim- can you imagine!?!? Be like running on a SGI machine! I just don't want to see Mario on the track.

>Playstation still isn't as good as a PC for auto simmers, but with >Psygnosis's F1 and NASCAR by Papy, and maybe even Andretti Racing, it >shows just how amazing it's early attempts at it are. The simmer >aesthetic just isn't there yet in the console world... it is still >about arcadish stuff. Have you seen Rally Cross yet? Randy

He has "Indianapolis: The Simulation", not the ICR Indianapolis track expansion add-on. Best Regards, Marc Marc J. Nelson Sim Racing News - USA http://members.aol.com/simracing

locomotive Oh boy. I really thought that being part of Sierra would take care of the big money stuff like licensing. This really is a clusterphu#ck... I think you are right BTW. -- Header address intentionaly scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

Whoops! That would be a problem alright :-) BTW, I got a 228 at indy the other night after a few hours of practice. Hopefuly I can get back to 235 which was my old record in the Origional 500-Simulation game. Mostly thought I am looking to do some H2H with a friend :-) -- Header address intentionaly scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

>But I look forward to the day that the >Nintendo64 would have a Papy sim- can you imagine!?!? Be like running >on a SGI machine! I just don't want to see Mario on the track. Andretti? Or that little plumber guy? --Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus

In what way did licensing fall by the wayside since the Sierra acquisition in your opinion? ---Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus

> >Oh boy. I really thought that being part of Sierra would take care of the > >big > >money stuff like licensing. This really is a clusterphu#ck... > In what way did licensing fall by the wayside since the Sierra > acquisition in your opinion? I really thought that with the Sierra deal there would have been no licensing problems. Especially if $$$ were an issue. Now since I answered something that was important to you, how about answering my question about the N2 paintshop being more difficult to work with (compared to ICR2). I noticed that you conveniently passed on answering that. I am sure it was an oversite. -- Header address intentionaly scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

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>> wrote >> >Oh boy. I really thought that being part of Sierra would take care of >the >> >big >> >money stuff like licensing. This really is a clusterphu#ck... >> In what way did licensing fall by the wayside since the Sierra >> acquisition in your opinion? >I really thought that with the Sierra deal there would have been no >licensing >problems. Especially if $$$ were an issue.

So somehow, Sierra was supposed to magically make Sega's exclusive license with Daytona non-exclusive? That would be a neat trick I suppose... Either I didn't see the original question, or I chose not to answer it, as I've never used the paintkit personally. (I'm about as artistic as I am rich; not much of either...) ---Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus

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>>Playstation still isn't as good as a PC for auto simmers, but with >>Psygnosis's F1 and NASCAR by Papy, and maybe even Andretti Racing, it >>shows just how amazing it's early attempts at it are. The simmer >>aesthetic just isn't there yet in the console world... it is still >>about arcadish stuff. >Have you seen Rally Cross yet?

Well, should I go buy it!?! I must admit that I tend to expect that everything coming our for PSX is an arcade game, not a sim, so I don't look too hard. If something catches my eye, then I look. The thing that makes NASCAR and Psyg's F1 good sims for me is that they do such a complete job of recreating the tracks. In a "Rally Cross" sim, I'm not sure what specific courses they'd be recreating. or even what it is about.

says... >>But I look forward to the day that the >>Nintendo64 would have a Papy sim- can you imagine!?!? Be like running >>on a SGI machine! I just don't want to see Mario on the track. >Andretti? Or that little plumber guy? >--Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus ROTFL. Good one Jim!!! Geoff Schuler

Jim- The obvious answer is the loss of the CART license to Sony. I'd like to add my two cents about features and bugs. I own ICR1, ICR2, GP2 and NASCAR1, and have played NASCAR2 fairly extensively on my brother's computers. The feature I long for is networked play in ICR2. I'll live with the bugs. Just please please please give us IPX networking, so more than two of us can race at the same time! ICR2 is still far and away my favorite sim. GP2 has great graphics and sound, and very nice menus, and some realism features that go beyond ICR2. But I find I just don't like the feel and driving style of the F1 cars as much as Indy Cars. I don't like to have to jam the car into the corner, braking at the last millisecond, flicking the wheel precisely the right amount at exactly the right instant, or else go flying off into the gravel. I like the relative tossability of the Indy Cars, where I can go in a bit deep and save it, or get it sideways under power and feed in some opposite lock. Similarly, NASCAR2 has much better menus than ICR2; for example, they've fixed a lot of the illogical things that forced you to break a modem connection before changing driving options, and the garage is far, far nicer to use. And I *love* being able to do networked play! Recently, my brother Nate, his son Cale, and I all raced together on Nate's LAN, attached via a modem and KProxy on one machine to the internet, with another person we found on a Kali server racing with us as well. This is an awesome capability! But, again, I just don't like driving NASCAR cars; they're too ponderous, awkward, and twitchy. Like trying to button your shirt while wearing ski mittens. Ugh. I love the responsiveness, the aliveness of the Indy Cars. Also, compared to GP2, ICR2 is a marvel of flexibility. I like being able to adjust parameters (like getting rid of the randomness in my car) and use programs like Editrpy, Viewstg, NCAR2ICR, Showstg, etc. For example, my brother Nate and I export best laps from Editrpy to Excel so we can graph and compare our driving styles, learning a great deal from each other this way. And ICR2 with the Rendition card is awesome. Incredibly responsive, realistic, so smooth, which such lovely graphics! This is simply a fabulous sim! I absolutely *love* driving these cars! Since I got my Screamin' 3D card, GP2 has been gathering dust. So in my mind, the ideal game right now would be an ICR2 updated to have the NASCAR2-style menus, and networked play. I could even do with the old menus, if you could just give us networked play! But alas, Sony has the CART rights, so it's apparently not commercially viable for Papyrus to work on ICR2 any more. Or is it? Doesn't Sony's license start in 1998? Could you get out a new release before the end of '97, if it contained only networked play and maybe a few bug fixes? How about it, Jim? Alison PS. I am still eagerly awaiting the historical Grand Prix sim! If it's networked, and incorporates what you've learned from NASCAR2's menu system, it could be awesome! But no matter how good it is, I am afraid I may always wish for a networked ICR2. One more thing: I use ICR2 and GP2 to familiarize myself with the tracks before each race during the real racing season, so I can better relate to what's happening on the tube when watching the races. I'm sure a lot of other people do this, too. So, if you just had that CART license, maybe the addition of the new tracks, like Homestead and California, would help make a new version of ICR2 commercially viable. -- Alison Hine

>>In what way did licensing fall by the wayside since the Sierra >>acquisition in your opinion? >The obvious answer is the loss of the CART license to Sony. The real problem with the IndyCar (here meaning the unified CART/IRL) license was that it was never particularly valuable. Even the combined game (ala ICR/ICR2) was never particularly profitable, (especially when compared to the alternatives that our company could be working on, F1/NASCAR/other more popular or totally untouched motorsports alternatives) but a CART-only or IRL-only would only be less profitable. After the CART/IRL split, we didn't have a team of people motivated to work on either product, so licensing was not agressively pursued. (Why pursue a license which isn't particularly valuable, only to force some engineers and artists to work on a product they aren't passionate about?) Papyrus definitely runs on passion for motorsports; if we tried to force it, it just wouldn't work. As for releasing an ICR3 which is just an ICR2 with IPX and new menus; can you imagine how the media, users, and rec.auto.sim would react to that? I realize that you've indicated that you'd pay for such a product, but I think you'll also permit me to estimate that you are in the minority. Witness how many people cried and whined that N2 should have been a free upgrade to N1... The other alternative is to release the new executable as a patch (so I'll discuss that here briefly). I'd guesstimate that it's probably well over 24 engineer-months, and 60 or so non-engineer (art, test driving, play balancing) months to do that work. (And that's assuming you are releasing it as a patch, where user expectations are bound to be lower...) With overhead, but without any profit concerns, that amounts to somewhere in the neighborhood of $400,000-$600,000 of labor. Even if you could convince anyone with an ounce of business sense to spend half a million on a two year old product for no return, you'd have to find people in our company who want to do that work and who are not already comitted to another project. ---Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus

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>The real problem with the IndyCar (here meaning the unified CART/IRL) >license was that it was never particularly valuable. Even the combined >game (ala ICR/ICR2) was never particularly profitable, (especially >when compared to the alternatives that our company could be working >on, F1/NASCAR/other more popular or totally untouched motorsports >alternatives) but a CART-only or IRL-only would only be less >profitable.

Jim, are you saying that Sony has made a mistake in acquiring the license to CART for their system? After all, they have 11 million Playstations out there worldwide and they are going to try to make a CART sim. Why would Sony invest in this license if they felt they couldn't turn a profit on a sim created using this license? Randy

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>>The real problem with the IndyCar (here meaning the unified CART/IRL) >>license was that it was never particularly valuable. [snip] >Jim, are you saying that Sony has made a mistake in acquiring the >license to CART for their system? After all, they have 11 million >Playstations out there worldwide and they are going to try to make a >CART sim.

I didn't say that at all. What I said is that it was not the most profitable thing for Papyrus to pursue. Obviously Sony has put their noodle to it and decided it was important to them for whatever reason (presumably profit was a motive) and has acquired the CART license. There could be a number of reasons, (the most obvious one being positioning themselves in the racing game market) Of course, the most likely scenario is they grabbed the license to make a profit on it... Don't get me wrong, Papyus turned profits on our (combined) IndyCar titles; we judged for a variety of reasons that there were MORE profitable and MORE interesting things for us to do... ---Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus, probably speaking for myself here.

>After the CART/IRL split, we didn't have a team of people motivated to >work on either product, so licensing was not agressively pursued. you mean some of the engineers were IRL fans? Because fact is, after the split, it was almost as if the sport modified CART to conform to ICR2! No indy500, namely. IOW, Papyrus was suddenly left with a complete CART sim! If CART were organized, focused and smart, they'd pay you to make a sim to get new fans. ICR2, while great, is still only a simmer's sim, not something to pull in lots of people. GP2 walks that line between sim and eye-candy-for the masses very nicely. This I don't quite understand. I even remember reading in the Papyrus official NASCAR handbook that the engineers originally pursued NASCAR because they just couldn't raise the funds to pursue to completion their first love: indycars. I.e., NASCAR would sell, enabling Papy to make the indy sim of their dreams (Indy500 The simulation wasn't the indycar sim of their dreams, apparently). I always found it a little surprising that this was put in the NASCAR book, but considered it an unusually honest revealing. Of course, that may have been original guys, and now they've all gone on. Certainly I've seen some Papyrus people come and go in this newsgroup. Anyway, Rick Genter told us Papy's Indycar series was dead almost one year ago, so I am not surprised. by any of this. I was amazed they actually lived up to Rick's promise to provide online the Win95 update- after saying they wouldn't. That won me back- pass that on to sierra. Because I hated Sierra after July last year, and now I am neutral, even a little impressed. now, put out ICR for playstation, and ICR3 for PC, and I'll love Sierra! ya, auto simmers will pay for any sim; I'd buy ICR3 just as a repackaged ICR2 with better menus. I bought the playstation for Psygnosis' F1; and am glad to have your lovely NASCAR. Please, ICR for playstation now. Please. Wow. That is a lot of money. But doesn't even cost one CART race car. So why the hell doesn't CART understand it would make back 20-fold whatever it gave you guys to make a sim "for the people." ICR2 is an aesthete's sim; it is hard, it is unforgiving, it is... for simmers. It is a shell of something that could be spiced up and sold to millions- add menus, add features like a "take-back" (giving you back the second before you made an idiot mistake), add infinite grades of novicity for he novices, etc. Then you'd have something even Doom and Myst players would want! I mean, racing has potential as a universally enjoyable thing (like shooting Imps and solving mysteries), evidence by the dearth of arcade games devoted to, uh, "racing." Frankly, I think Indycar (the sport) is in real trouble; not just with the split- that was a nail in it's potential coffin. But it is in trouble because they don't know what they are doing. It is obviously one of the best formulas around, easily a more interesting *racing* formula than F1 (hey, I love F1, own every sim, but it's rules make it a parade)- but not nearly 1/100th as popular. It just isn't promoted right. If CART (or IRL) knew what it was doing, it would push it for new fans in the... (don't hate me!) MTV/Gen-X generation (it looks, after all, like a skateboard, and dances with death in a similar way), and, above all, CART would raise the meager price equivelent of a few new indy engines, give you and your gang (Papyrus) the $1 meg you need for an updated, hot sim, and pass around flashy demos, ala DOOM or Descent or what have you. I don't mean a crappy, arcade sim- I mean a complete package, like GP2, which appeals to non-simmers and simmers alike. Or Psyg's F1, for that matter, but better than that. Sure, promotion sounds crappy, unpure, tainted, etc. But it is how you build the audience- look at NASCAR; they don't fool around, they know their audience, and they shoot for them, and the personalities and eccentricities of their sportmen are pushed like action figures. CART presently seems to spend their promo money aimlessly. CART just sort of sits there; they aren't focused. And yet they'd have a huge audience of people if they tried half as hard as NASCAR- and helpfully, a largely different audience from NASCAR. NASCAR ain't (I think everyone would agree) a "Gen-X" sport- CART could just grab that niche. I have faith that once they started to *watch* the sport, many would start to love it. It is an ultimate sport; the problem is getting new potential fans to watch it. Anyway, racing has a potential promotional advantage over every other sport, in that in a computer sim, you can actually recreate exactly what you if you were the sportsman would see. On top of this, everybody drives, and everybody has a certain interest in driving (love it or hate it); people already know the dynamics of the sport. Can anybody think of another sport with these two plusses? The first is truly unique- I can't think of another sport where you actually get to get in the offensive line, or behind the soccer ball, or at the plate. Racing sims let you really race Atlanta when you watch the real Atlanta race. This is something I think the sports could take advantage of. Thanks, Jim, as always for sticking with us.

<snip> <snip> <snip> Boy, what a can of worms I opened here. I think that if you read the newsrelease from the CART page that I posted earlier, you could deduce that there is a real push happening in the marketing arena by the folks at CART. An ICR3 for Playstation is EXACTLY what they're hoping to achieve (whether they will or not will be shown in the future, no speculative flames here please.) Sierra should not be blamed for not ponying up more money for the CART license. As Sokoloff has patiently explained no fewer than three times in this string, the license was not as valuable to them. In addition, remember that CART has the right to sell the license to whomever they want, which may not necessarily be the highest bidder. Let me explain. CART is facing the huge pressure of competition with the IRL, as we all know. In keeping with your suggestion of focusing, they decided to pursue a *** system with a large installation base, and get fans that will be around for a while (vis-a-vis, YOUNG.) I am performing in a play right now, and one of the cast members is about 13 years old. We have become friends, and we talk quite a bit about sports. The sports his friends watch, in order, are 1)Basketball, 2)Hockey, 3) Baseball/Football (tie). NONE OF THEM WATCH ANY MOTORSPORTS AT ALL. However, they are all car freaks, and this is the market that CART is probably going for. As far as your MTV/GEN-X comment, CART had a great promotional piece on MTV last season that was a refreshing take on the series. Although CART's new marketing efforts are not necessarily positive for us hard-core simmers, it is a definite move at becoming more focused, like you recommend. All of the above is strictly IMHO. Cheers, Pooch O-iiiii-O

I am in no way affiliated, attached, or "in-the-know" with official policy at Sierra/Papyrus. However, in order to ease your mind, I am 100% certain based on dialogues in newsgroups and off-line that Sierra/Papyrus will not be making any CART nor IRL sims in the near future (at least two years, possibly many more.) I can understand if you choose to not believe this statement based on my dubious credentials, but as a fellow simmer who cares about the genre I do not engage in the dissemination of inuendo. Cheers, Pooch O-iiiii-O

Ironic. Due to my interest in racing sims I have bought ICR1, the 7 Track Pack, the IMS/Paintkit Pack, GP1, NASCAR1, the Track Pack, ICR2, GP2, NASCAR2, and a Reactor video card (ICR2-3D) (around $300 investment, excluding hardware). I like them all, but to varying degrees. If I looked at how much I use them, I'd come up with the following ratings (*really* rough numbers, mostly to make a point)... ICR1/2/3D 1000 hours NASCAR1/2 500 hours (mostly N1) GP1/2 50 hours Unfortunately, its not feasible for me to buy 20 copies of ICR to match my copy of GP. When I buy one copy of each, the publisher is not getting the right message. I see my mistake. I guess from now on I should only buy the sims that I *really* want, and not bother buying NASCAR3 or GP3. Maybe the publishers will get the right message... I've seen published reports that ICR1 & 2 sold a combined 420,000 copies. Not too shabby. It may be half the market of NASCAR1 (or 1/3 that of GP1/GP2), but that still looks like very respectable numbers to this uneducated CART fan (particularly when a fair amount of the development cost is shared with its sister sim, NASCAR). Sorry to hear your engineers have lost their fire for IndyCars. Although I guess that's old news, looking back on the ICR2 8-month patch debacle. I'm starting to wonder about their fire for NASCAR; what's it been, three months and counting?... :( Before you send me UCE, I know what you're thinking... Did he complain to five or six postmasters last month? Now, you must ask yourself one question: "Do I feel lucky?" Well, do you, punk?

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>: Define finish please? Should id go back and add multiplayer over IPX >: to Wolfenstein 3D? Probably not. By the same token, I don't see any >: reason to continue to pour development money into ICR2 for no return. >: ICR2 as it current exists is a finished product as far as I can tell. >: Sure it's not 100% perfect, and our latest NASCAR sim has some >: features that ICR2 lacks. However, that doesn't make ICR2 unfinished. >: It just makes it have less features than our latest product has. >Jim, I'm not asking for any "new" features for ICR2, but... There are >still some major bugs left in the last patch. Some which make certain >tracks "unraceable". If I remember correctly AI cars drive in between >the pit walls in Long Beach, enter and exit through the pit wall. The >"yellow flag" bug was never really fixed. If this qualifies as a >finished product, this bodes poorly for QA for N2 and future >Sierra/Papyrus products.

I wish they would just fix the multiplayer bug in the Rendition version. I have more fun racing head to head than against the AI. Dave Sparks IWCCCARS Project: http://www.theuspits.com/iwcccars Late Night League: http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html Hawaii Handle: davids

Now we're getting down to brass tacks. Papyrus used to be the company that made the sims it loved and made a profit from it along the way. Now its the company that goes for the biggest profit and struggles to maintain its interest in the job at hand. No, that doesn't sound like the Papyrus I knew. It sure does sound like Sierra, though, doesn't it? :( Before you send me UCE, I know what you're thinking... Did he complain to five or six postmasters last month? Now, you must ask yourself one question: "Do I feel lucky?" Well, do you, punk?

>>Of course, the most likely scenario is they grabbed the license to >>make a profit on it... Don't get me wrong, Papyus turned profits on >>our (combined) IndyCar titles; we judged for a variety of reasons that >>there were MORE profitable and MORE interesting things for us to do... Perhaps I should have reversed the order of these two things (profit and interest), but the statement stands true as written. And that's still what we're doing, making sims we love, making sims WE want to play, helping others to share in the enjoyment of our sims, and making money long the way. As the original discussion pertained to how we somehow "screwed up" by not renewing the license which allowed us (in the past) to do ICR/ICR2. Personally, I've lost all interest in the CART/IRL clusterf&*%. I couldn't care less what Mr George does with his race track (though I'd like to see it made available for licensing for NASCAR sims), and I couldn't care less where the open wheel racing is on Memorial day. (I've got barbeques and random outdoor-type socializing to do that day anyhow...) While I was never a huge IndyCar fan, I feel the IRL has done a great deal to "soil" Indy-type car competition for me. And therefore, I've got no interest in working on an Indy-type car sim. (in fact, I'd probably leave Papyrus rather than work on a product that I didn't believe in, and didn't WANT to do) I working on a NASCAR product; NASCAR is the sim I MOST want to work on, and therefore will be the sim to which I bring the most passion and quality of work to. I'm not aware of so much as single engineer at Papyrus who MOST wants to work on an Indy-type car sim, and therefore, I don't think we pursued that license at all. You don't get product without engineers, and buying a license, only to have no product to show for it is a fairly ass backwards way to run a company. You speak negatively about Papyrus as a profit-seeking business, as if we should all be some FSF*-esque monks who strive to provide products without any concern for profitability. I've got news for you; Papyrus is in business to make a profit. By making a profit, we have money available to buy machines, rent buildings, hire engineers, artists, producers, designers, and testers. Without those people, who don't come for free by any means, there are no more Papyrus products of any motorsports genre. I'm not independently wealthy, and if Papyrus became unable to pay me a decent salary, I'd be forced to resign and provide for my family elsewhere. Most of my fellow employees are in the same situation. As an employee and stockholder, I hope like hell that Papyrus works for the biggest profit over the long run, as that's the only thing that will keep its employees employed, happy and well-paid, as well as ensuring that motorsports-sim fans will be able to continue to enjoy our products. I've sent a courtesy copy of this by e-mail, but I'm perfectly content to have this discussion "in public" if you like... ---Jim Sokoloff, totally speaking for myself... Footnote(*): I have nothing against the FSF, and they have some interesting goals and positions. I don't agree with all of them by any means, but I do use (and benefit from) a good deal of GPL'd software

>>>Of course, the most likely scenario is they grabbed the license to >>>make a profit on it... Don't get me wrong, Papyus turned profits on >>>our (combined) IndyCar titles; we judged for a variety of reasons that >>>there were MORE profitable and MORE interesting things for us to do... >Perhaps I should have reversed the order of these two things (profit >and interest), but the statement stands true as written. That's my point. It seems like the priorities have shifted. Whether its with a greater level of success (how do you get 'em back in IndyCars after they've tasted NASCAR bucks?), with the Sierra buyout/merger, or just a "maturation" of the company, it seems that making the big score is the prime directive. The 8-month patch delay on ICR2 (we got your money, we'll get around to fixing it sometime) and the NASCAR2 situation (releasing it with bugs in time for Christmas) have only reinforced that impression. Me too. I cope by mostly ignoring the IRL and enjoying CART. The hot war is pretty much over, in case you haven't been watching. IndyCars are still running races, and in some ways (if you want to be optimistic) the genre has been enhanced by the split. Competition is good and it can lead to a better CART. At this point, IMHO, if Tony George is still ruining your enjoyment of IndyCar, you need to get over it (or question how much of a fan you were in the first place, which you did admit up-front). Not any concern for profitability, but profitablity as the first criterion is my contention. I've spent about $250 on Papyrus software, so I'd think its obvious that I don't have any problems with you earning a profit for your efforts. I just want you to A) finish your existing product (I haven't seen you address the problems of game saves and modem racing on ICR2-3D) and B) possibly create ICR3, and continue to produce the best IndyCar sims on the market. Papyrus is free to do whatever it wants. We, the purchasers and users of racing sims can do the same. It would be nice if we both wanted the same thing. :) <doing the email thing as well, 'cause you never can trust all the news, all the time> Before you send me UCE, I know what you're thinking... Did he complain to five or six postmasters last month? Now, you must ask yourself one question: "Do I feel lucky?" Well, do you, punk?

This seems to be the crux of the matter. I've read your other postings in the newsgroup subsequent to others' replies. If people at Papyrus aren't passionate about Indy cars, then clearly there's no point in trying to do another Indy car sim. It's too bad the IRL/CART split has dampened your enthusiasm (although, as you say, your own passion has always been for NASCAR anyway). I agree it's been a pain to go through this split, and I had a lot of anger toward Tony George for a long time. But now I feel that the IRL is shaping up to be another good minor league feeder series for CART, like Atlantics and Indy Lights, and despite the loss of Indianapolis, CART's racing is even better and more competitive, with new interest from the multiplicity of engines, chassis, and tires. I don't think those whiners are programmers. As a software engineer myself, I can appreciate how much effort goes into each new release, and the reasons why it takes months to come out with a patch. Many years ago, I wrote a crude racing sim myself, and marketed it briefly with some small success. I learned a lot doing it, but the difficulties of going to a 3D representation of the track view (mine had an overhead, 2D view) defeated me, and I never went beyond that simple original effort. In the ensuing years, I've worked on a number of large projects, with teams of programmers and millions of lines of code. The headaches involved in quashing bugs, testing, putting together a definitive release, not to mention the design problems, controlling the scope, integration of modules, etc., are something that no one that hasn't been through it can appreciate. My hat's off to Papyrus for doing what you've done to advance the state of the art of racing sims. I'm glad you are driven by passion! Alison -- Alison Hine

> Of course, the most likely scenario is they grabbed the license to > make a profit on it... Don't get me wrong, Papyus turned profits on > our (combined) IndyCar titles; we judged for a variety of reasons that > there were MORE profitable and MORE interesting things for us to do... > ---Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus, probably speaking for myself here. So you honestly think that a stadium truck sim will turn more profits than another ICR sim?? Granted, I was a big Nintendo "Super Off-Road" fan, but IMO an ICR sim would do better.. David Otterness - the starter if this wonderful thread..

All sorts of stuff snipped! Good post, Jon. I agree with you on just about everything. I think both camps missed out on a real opportunity. CART could have worked a deal with Papy/Sierra after the IRL split, or Sierra/Papy could have seen an opening to get the license. Then again, maybe the Sony marketing machine was there before either party thought of it. I just think it's a real shame that Papyrus gave up on the product that put them on the map in the first place. If not for Indy 500 and IndyCar Racing, where would they be? There wouldn't be any Nascar, NRO, or N2. They wouldn't be part of Sierra; that's a definite. IndyCar 2 was released incomplete and bug-ridden, then not patched for months, and when it was, it was an incomplete patch. Was this because the Nascar money machine was breathing down their necks and pressuring them to concentrate on their product? We'll never know. Well, at least I can look forward to Grand Prix Legends. This game looks like it might have some real potential with an all new game engine. The screen shots in the Sierra Inter Active mag look okay; too many angles on things like mirrors and the like. Hey, it's early. But more importantly, the story talks about a virtual***pit! This means we can finally move our sim-racing Heads to look at other cars, and probably that the line of sight changes from straight down the front of the car to potentially looking down the track! This will make for a tremendous improvement. I hope David Kaemmer can pull it off. They're talking about a late '97 release (make it summer '98 if we're lucky). Neil -- ---- ------ -------- ---------- ------------ -------------- Neil Yeatman Ajax, Ontario, CANADA

Yes we do!!! It's Sierras way of doing bez, after I heard that Sierra had bought Papyrus I knew that was the end of a good thing, Sierras idea of a patch is to sell you a new game(which of course is buggy), it keeps them selling games, THATS all they care about, SELLS. I avoid all Seirra products as they do NOT back the products they sell!!! They don't care if a product is good or bad just as long as it sells.

On Wed, 12 Mar 1997 21:28:29 -0600, David Otterness

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>> Of course, the most likely scenario is they grabbed the license to >> make a profit on it... Don't get me wrong, Papyus turned profits on >> our (combined) IndyCar titles; we judged for a variety of reasons that >> there were MORE profitable and MORE interesting things for us to do... >> ---Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus, probably speaking for myself here. >So you honestly think that a stadium truck sim will turn more profits >than another ICR sim?? Granted, I was a big Nintendo "Super Off-Road" >fan, but IMO an ICR sim would do better..

I am once again rueing the day I wrote those two MORE clauses in that order. (They should have been reversed, which would more properly connote the meaning I intended.) You are correct (probably) in estimating that ICR3 would outsell SODA... But the key is interested development team(s), and SODA's team is really kicking tail getting that product ready... I can assure you that they are properly motivated... :-) ---Jim Sokoloff, again, these words are my own, and not Papyrus'

: > : > Of course, the most likely scenario is they grabbed the license to : > make a profit on it... Don't get me wrong, Papyus turned profits on : > our (combined) IndyCar titles; we judged for a variety of reasons that : > there were MORE profitable and MORE interesting things for us to do... : > : > ---Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus, probably speaking for myself here. : So you honestly think that a stadium truck sim will turn more profits : than another ICR sim?? Granted, I was a big Nintendo "Super Off-Road" : fan, but IMO an ICR sim would do better.. It looks like this will be the first sim from Papyrus I won't have an interest in and don't see myself spending any money on it. But, if the Passion is gone from the people left at Papyrus, it's better that they leave it alone. This would easily explain why we never saw a completed version of ICR2! -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

I agree with averything except that NASCAR is not a "generation X" sport. With the aging of the generation Xers, the sport has grown tremendously. Crowds have tripled at the tracks in the last 15 years. If anything, NASCAR is "THE" generation X sport. I am an Indy car fan and a NASCAR fan. I was also a driver in SCCA for 15 years. NASCAR is by far the most popular and unique racing series in the world at present. With the recent TV coverage in Europe, and racing in Japan, the NASCAR show is going to the *** series. Indy must get its act together or it will fade into obscurity behind NASCAR and GP. -- > All sorts of stuff snipped! > > CART just sort of sits there; they aren't focused. And yet they'd have > > a huge audience of people if they tried half as hard as NASCAR- and > > helpfully, a largely different audience from NASCAR. NASCAR ain't (I > > think everyone would agree) a "Gen-X" sport- <snip>

>Yes we do!!! It's Sierras way of doing bez, after I heard that Sierra >had bought Papyrus I knew that was the end of a good thing, Sierras >idea of a patch is to sell you a new game(which of course is buggy), >it keeps them selling games, THATS all they care about, SELLS. I >avoid all Seirra products as they do NOT back the products they sell!!! >They don't care if a product is good or bad just as long as it sells. I can assure you that Sierra hasn't told Papyrus not to patch NASCAR II, and didn't tell Papyrus to delay patching ICR II. Tech support is at Sierra, and they've got to answer questions about all the problems that come up; those guys want a patch even more than y'all do. Charlie Heath Papyrus

Speaking from my own experience, I've always found Sierra to be one of the most supportive software companies around. True, their large corporate size does make response time to querries rather slow, but they do seem to be putting a lot of effort into keeping their customers satisfied. If you really want headches, try loading your hard drive with Origin titles! You don't have to worry about patches then....you'll be so frutrated writing PIF files and boot disks that just getting the damned things to run will make you happy as a hog in slop.

I feel that ICR2 is the best simulator game..Even though there are so many bugs, I prefer ICR2. Look how little track converters come from GP2.. they can't do that!! Anyways, ICR2 is fun at Taladega, where I can blow away the competition. What Papy needs to do is to try to join forces with Sony. http://members.aol.com/ROSCS

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>>Yes we do!!! It's Sierras way of doing bez, after I heard that Sierra >>had bought Papyrus I knew that was the end of a good thing, Sierras >>idea of a patch is to sell you a new game(which of course is buggy), >>it keeps them selling games, THATS all they care about, SELLS. I >>avoid all Seirra products as they do NOT back the products they sell!!! >>They don't care if a product is good or bad just as long as it sells. >I can assure you that Sierra hasn't told Papyrus not to patch NASCAR II, >and didn't tell Papyrus to delay patching ICR II. Tech support is at >Sierra, and they've got to answer questions about all the problems that >come up; those guys want a patch even more than y'all do. >Charlie Heath >Papyrus

Charlie, If you guys want a patch so damn bad... excuse me. If SIERRA wants a patch so damn bad then why did all the bugs slip through the beta testers in the first place??? I'm thinking that sierra told papy to get the product on the street reguardless of the bugs and then MAYBE worry about a patch later. All about money eh? Hawg

[snip and adjust] Umm, I know queries about grammar are out of place on Usenet, but do you mean : Each person with their own thumbs up their own butt? or Everyone with their thumbs up one collective butt? If so, who is so committed to all their co-workers to offer this service? That said, and to post at least something appropriate to this ng, and the subject line - ICR2 seems pretty finished to me on my new rendition based card. It NEVER drops below 30fps with ALL DETAIL and if I turn it to fast mode it peaks at 78fps. Frame rates like this make the game ten times more playable and fun. I haven't got N2 yet - is the rendition version as good as ICR2? Jet

<snipped excellent grammar lesson> : That said, and to post at least something appropriate to this ng, and : the subject line - ICR2 seems pretty finished to me on my new : rendition based card. It NEVER drops below 30fps with ALL DETAIL : and if I turn it to fast mode it peaks at 78fps. Frame rates like : this make the game ten times more playable and fun. I haven't : got N2 yet - is the rendition version as good as ICR2? Not quite. NASCAR2 is pretty good in rendition mode at most tracks. It will still drop a little below 30 with my P166 on occassion. However, their are a couple of tracks where the something isn't optimized and the frame rates can get "chunky" even with the rendition card (e.g., Martinsville). Don't think there is a "turbo mode" in N2. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=