rec.autos.simulators

Highway Robbery: Olbuck Strikes Again!

Steve Smit

Highway Robbery: Olbuck Strikes Again!

by Steve Smit » Fri, 27 Aug 2004 10:44:56

Dan Olbuck has done much to trash the passion for realism that countless
others have fanned since the late 20th century in sims like GPL and NASCAR
Racing 2003.  He has "created" three N2003 tracks--Riverside, Bridgehampton,
and Lime Rock; two of which bear no resemblance whatsoever to the real
thing.  I've already commented on his version of Bridgehampton (which has
the main straight running downhill instead of uphill) and a preliminary
version of Lime Rock (which looks about as much like the famous track in NW
Connecticut as Bullrun, Papy's famously fantastic road circuit).  His
version of Riverside seems to be a retexturing of the track that I helped
Papy design for NASCAR Legends, albeit ringed with Hollywood-ish mountains
that make it look more like it's set in Shangri-La.

Now he's released two "new" versions of Lime Rock, which seem to be loosely
based on the painstaking research done by Brent Adams for two GPL tracks:
Brent's dead accurate renditions of the real-world venues (with and without
the bus-stop chicane), and the so-called "Mountain Circuit," planned in the
Fifties but never built, which would have extended the track to almost 3
miles.  Olbuck proclaimed he never bothered to look at Lou Magyar's
brilliant recreation of Bridgehampton (which was two years in the making
thanks to Lou's obsessive committment to realism) because he, Olbuck, didn't
want to merely "clone" someone else's work.

Or so he said.

This time, he's shamelessly "borrowed" Adams' research for the Mountain
Circuit (down to copying elements like Hine Hairpin and Smith's
Straight--named after some of us beta testers--and even Beagle's Nest, the
name of Brent's dog!).  Needless to say, Adams isn't even mentioned in the
readme.

Don't be fooled!  There is nothing realistic about these tracks.  Everybody
gushes over how fabulous they are...probably because the grip levels are
absurdly high, so you look like a hero (actually, I think he inadvertantly
reversed the OWR and PTA values), but they aren't anywhere close to the
truth as I know it...and I've had extensive RW experience at all three
tracks.  Olbuck has a knack for making fantasy tracks that exhibit exemplary
levels of craftsmanship...and hugely enjoyable driveability...but they are
much more "arcade" than "simulation."

Let the flames begin!

--Steve

Stuart Becktel

Highway Robbery: Olbuck Strikes Again!

by Stuart Becktel » Fri, 27 Aug 2004 12:45:14


Sort of off topic, but one thing that has hurt my love of racing sims lately
has been that tracks I've gone to in RL in racing sims just aren't right at
all. Watkins Glen in N2003 is pretty good, but the rumble strips are
completely wrong, same thing with Pocono.

And if this is true, the guy should burn in hell for all eternity.

...or something along those lines.

Anthony Brook

Highway Robbery: Olbuck Strikes Again!

by Anthony Brook » Fri, 27 Aug 2004 21:16:14


> Don't be fooled!??There?is?nothing?realistic?about?these?tracks.

I don't see anyone else making these tracks. Have to use what we got. If you
have a problem with the realism, maybe you should take up track making.
Not sure what the purpose of your post is. Sounds more like a personal issue
with Dan. If you don't like his tracks, then don't use them. Simple. Your
post makes you come off like a whinny school girl.
--
Anthony Brooks
John DiFoo

Highway Robbery: Olbuck Strikes Again!

by John DiFoo » Sat, 28 Aug 2004 00:37:10

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 01:44:56 GMT, "Steve Smith"


>Don't be fooled!  There is nothing realistic about these tracks.  Everybody
>gushes over how fabulous they are...probably because the grip levels are
>absurdly high, so you look like a hero (actually, I think he inadvertantly
>reversed the OWR and PTA values), but they aren't anywhere close to the
>truth as I know it...and I've had extensive RW experience at all three
>tracks.  Olbuck has a knack for making fantasy tracks that exhibit exemplary
>levels of craftsmanship...and hugely enjoyable driveability...but they are
>much more "arcade" than "simulation."

>Let the flames begin!

>--Steve

Hmm TA grip on the mountain track is 1.06 asphalt, 1.09 concrete, and
someone on the Pits was claiming that typical grip on a TA track is
"absurdly low".   Different universes I guess...

       John DiFool

Steve Smit

Highway Robbery: Olbuck Strikes Again!

by Steve Smit » Sat, 28 Aug 2004 01:11:40

I was wrong.  The default LIMEROCK_MT track.ini has the OWR values:
1.60/1.50 for asphalt/concrete.  Following the readme instructions
substitutes the correct PTA values: 1.06/1.09.


> On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 01:44:56 GMT, "Steve Smith"

> >Don't be fooled!  There is nothing realistic about these tracks.
Everybody
> >gushes over how fabulous they are...probably because the grip levels are
> >absurdly high, so you look like a hero (actually, I think he
inadvertantly
> >reversed the OWR and PTA values), but they aren't anywhere close to the
> >truth as I know it...and I've had extensive RW experience at all three
> >tracks.  Olbuck has a knack for making fantasy tracks that exhibit
exemplary
> >levels of craftsmanship...and hugely enjoyable driveability...but they
are
> >much more "arcade" than "simulation."

> >Let the flames begin!

> >--Steve

> Hmm TA grip on the mountain track is 1.06 asphalt, 1.09 concrete, and
> someone on the Pits was claiming that typical grip on a TA track is
> "absurdly low".   Different universes I guess...

>        John DiFool

JP

Highway Robbery: Olbuck Strikes Again!

by JP » Sat, 28 Aug 2004 04:24:50



> > Don't be fooled! There is nothing realistic about these tracks.

> I don't see anyone else making these tracks. Have to use what we got. If
you
> have a problem with the realism, maybe you should take up track making.
> Not sure what the purpose of your post is. Sounds more like a personal
issue
> with Dan. If you don't like his tracks, then don't use them. Simple. Your
> post makes you come off like a whinny school girl.
> --
> Anthony Brooks

   Yep.  Besides posting to a place that the other guy doesn't frequent,
interesting.
J.D. Elli

Highway Robbery: Olbuck Strikes Again!

by J.D. Elli » Sat, 28 Aug 2004 10:39:27


Steve:

I like you and respect you, but as others have said, at least go to The
Pits' forum where the creator hangs out to offer constructive criticism.

I share your pain, as there's a distinct lack of a good Mid-Ohio.

Besides, his Lime Rock is certainly better than either of our releases! ;-)

-jde

Bruce Kennewel

Highway Robbery: Olbuck Strikes Again!

by Bruce Kennewel » Sat, 28 Aug 2004 14:21:45

A "whinny" schoolgirl?
What...she's got a face like a horse....is that what you mean?

Bruce.


Steve Smit

Highway Robbery: Olbuck Strikes Again!

by Steve Smit » Sat, 28 Aug 2004 22:39:37

Thx, Bruce.  I was too bashful to mention this.


> A "whinny" schoolgirl?
> What...she's got a face like a horse....is that what you mean?

> Bruce.



> > Your post makes you come off like a whinny school girl.

Anthony Brook

Highway Robbery: Olbuck Strikes Again!

by Anthony Brook » Sun, 29 Aug 2004 03:26:06


> Thx, Bruce.??I?was?too?bashful?to?mention?this.

Still sound like a punk to me.
--
Anthony Brooks
Anthony Brook

Highway Robbery: Olbuck Strikes Again!

by Anthony Brook » Sun, 29 Aug 2004 03:34:20


> A "whinny" schoolgirl?
> What...she's got a face like a horse....is that what you mean?

I think you got a good idea what I meant, but let me correct it.........
whiner
whining
whiney
whines
whined
You get the point yet?
--
Anthony Brooks
Brent Adam

Highway Robbery: Olbuck Strikes Again!

by Brent Adam » Sun, 29 Aug 2004 09:02:13

Anthony:

whinny school girl ???? Do you really think that Steve pointing out that
some cat is ripping off other peoples work and repackaging it as his own is
"whining??" . Personally i find it disgraceful that the perpatrator didn't
even have the courtesy to ask to use someone elses intelecual property and
before "CONVERTING IT". Alot of people put a huge amount of time (and money)
into making those tracks for GPL and something like this just marginalizes
their efforts. Makes people think twice about even being involved in another
project, whether it be GPL, Nascar or whatever.

As for the "Mountain Circuit", Steve earned the right to make his statement.
It was soley his idea to create it and he personally spent hours digging
through archives; personally meeting with the the original LRP builders and
current track historian to get enough information about the original plans
for the MC to allow it to be created for GPL.

Fraud is Fraud. Nothing personal about it . Is pointing it out "whining
?"........ I hope not.
--
Brent Adams
LimeRock Park for GPL, LRP for GPL, Mountain Circuit of GPL, Paramount Ranch
for GPL!!!!!!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Bored?? ... visit my website
http://limerock.racesimcentral.com
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++


> > Don't be fooled! There is nothing realistic about these tracks.

> I don't see anyone else making these tracks. Have to use what we got. If
you
> have a problem with the realism, maybe you should take up track making.
> Not sure what the purpose of your post is. Sounds more like a personal
issue
> with Dan. If you don't like his tracks, then don't use them. Simple. Your
> post makes you come off like a whinny school girl.
> --
> Anthony Brooks

Dave Henri

Highway Robbery: Olbuck Strikes Again!

by Dave Henri » Sun, 29 Aug 2004 09:28:14


   No but I'm gonna have a hangover tomorrow.......

dave henrie

Steve Smit

Highway Robbery: Olbuck Strikes Again!

by Steve Smit » Sun, 29 Aug 2004 10:13:30

Brent rocks! Anthony sucks!


> Anthony:

> whinny school girl ???? Do you really think that Steve pointing out that
> some cat is ripping off other peoples work and repackaging it as his own
is
> "whining??" . Personally i find it disgraceful that the perpatrator didn't
> even have the courtesy to ask to use someone elses intelecual property and
> before "CONVERTING IT". Alot of people put a huge amount of time (and
money)
> into making those tracks for GPL and something like this just marginalizes
> their efforts. Makes people think twice about even being involved in
another
> project, whether it be GPL, Nascar or whatever.

> As for the "Mountain Circuit", Steve earned the right to make his
statement.
> It was soley his idea to create it and he personally spent hours digging
> through archives; personally meeting with the the original LRP builders
and
> current track historian to get enough information about the original plans
> for the MC to allow it to be created for GPL.

> Fraud is Fraud. Nothing personal about it . Is pointing it out "whining
> ?"........ I hope not.
> --
> Brent Adams
> LimeRock Park for GPL, LRP for GPL, Mountain Circuit of GPL, Paramount
Ranch
> for GPL!!!!!!

> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Bored?? ... visit my website
> http://limerock.racesimcentral.com
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++



> > > Don't be fooled! There is nothing realistic about these tracks.

> > I don't see anyone else making these tracks. Have to use what we got. If
> you
> > have a problem with the realism, maybe you should take up track making.
> > Not sure what the purpose of your post is. Sounds more like a personal
> issue
> > with Dan. If you don't like his tracks, then don't use them. Simple.
Your
> > post makes you come off like a whinny school girl.
> > --
> > Anthony Brooks

Bruce Kennewel

Highway Robbery: Olbuck Strikes Again!

by Bruce Kennewel » Sun, 29 Aug 2004 20:54:18

Oh, I "got the point" the first time, Anthony. I'm not totally bereft of the
ability to interpret what you meant.

I just can't abide grammatical laziness when, in this day and age, checking
spelling doesn't even require one to expend energy in reaching for a
dictionary.

And I really just wanted to put the boot in, anyway; your castigation of Mr.
Smith was ridiculously over-the-top.

Cheery-bye!
Bruce.



> > A "whinny" schoolgirl?
> > What...she's got a face like a horse....is that what you mean?

> I think you got a good idea what I meant, but let me correct it.........
> whiner
> whining
> whiney
> whines
> whined
> You get the point yet?
> --
> Anthony Brooks


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