rec.autos.simulators

    accusations

    denials

    To which I enquire, has any third party track maker legally registered a
track as their intelectual property to date? If not, would it be possible?

When Goy commented that you were acting childish, instead of just
taking aim back at Goy, you chose to launch a character attack on
everyone at the Pits, thus making Goy's point that much stronger, and
soliciting a response from me, so here we go.  First, I suggest you
step away from the keyboard for a while as I can almost see the foam
frothing from your mouth as you type.

If you know anything at all about Jan Kohl, you know that he has a
very low tolerance for piracy or theft.  If you had simply raised the
question of the legitimacy of Dan's work, you would have found Jan and
other people at the Pits willing to help provide the proof that either
Dan's work was original, Dan's work was a copy, or Dan's work was
somewhere in between.  You would have then found that Jan and others
at the Pits would be willing to take any action necessary to resolve
any conflicts that were found (in fact we had one member of the Pits
dropped over an issue of piracy just this year and I was one of the
people who helped prove the claim was accurate).

You started off in one single post claiming that Dan's work is nowhere
near accurate and claiming his work is a copy of the very accurate GPL
versions.  In one single post you didn't say that Dan's work looked
suspicious, you flatly claimed his work was stolen.  In one single
post you even insinuate that this has been an ongoing trend for Dan.
In one single post, the very first post in this thread, you launched
nothing less than a witch hunt.  In the very first sentence you said,
"Dan Olbuck has done much to trash the passion for realism that
countless others have fanned since the late 20th century in sims like
GPL and NASCAR Racing 2003."  You didn't offer any chance for debate.
You didn't leave any room for possibly being wrong in your
perceptions.  You just marched out onto the public stage, pointed a
finger squarely at Dan Olbuck and accused him of theft and ruining
realism in the sim racing world.

It looks to me like you've unfortunately dug yourself into such a deep
whole now that there isn't any way to really get out clean.  If Dan's
work can be shown to be his own then you've committed libel at best
(even if it can't be tried in court, you haven't raised questions,
you've made blatant accusations, a former editor should know better).
Even if Dan's work can be shown to be copied from Brent's work, you've
managed to launch a character assassination of everyone at the Pits.
If things continue on this current path, it's just a matter of time
before someone decides to start kicking the dirt in on top of you and
the truth is, I don't want to see that, regardless of how many of my
friends you've ***ed in this one thread.

Instead of using your skills in communication to help a friend resolve
a potential issue, you chose to use your skills to start a war.
Instead of escalating this even further, would you possibly consider
that there is a way of working with Dan, Jan and others at the Pits to
get to the bottom of this and find out the truth (which you should
have some clue about now that you've seen Jan's most recent post with
attached pictures).  You can either back it off a few notches and
start an actual dialogue like a mature ***, or you can continue to
foam at the mouth and spit vile curses at anyone who disagrees with
you.

I also see where Brent has decided to "not accuse" Dave Noonan of
being involved, yet he was very willing to insinuate that Dave could
have been involved.  May I suggest that you drop that train of thought
unless you have some actual proof.  I don't expect you'll find any
since there isn't any, so just drop it before you make things even
worse.  Don't get me wrong Brent, you seem to be a level-headed guy
and I understand your feelings and concern that someone might have
stolen your hard work.  Unfortunately Mr. Smith has turned a question
of someone's honesty into a full on character assassination and then
expanded it to a witch hunt of everyone at the Pits.

I honestly don't know what the real point of Steve's original post was
since there was absolutely nothing in it aimed at getting to the
bottom of a possible conflict, but to merely attack someone.  I know
most of the rest of his posts have been little more than lashing out
at anyone who made him aware that he'd cornered himself.

Steve, you can lash out at me too if that's what you feel you need to
do.  Just remember that if your actual goal was to help a friend get
credit for his work, that this is not the way to go about it.

You could also turn down the heat Steve.  Stop throwing insults after
insults and try to help your friend Brent get to the bottom of things.
 I can tell you that Dan and Jan have proof that your tracks were not
converted and modified.  I understand that Dan used a map that took a
lot of research to build and that issue will be resolved if you're
willing.  I understand that you've found some mip files that were used
and that too can be resolved if you're willing.  If you haven't worked
with sandbox, then you likely don't understand how much easier it is
to build a quality track if you have good resources and information,
which you were unknowingly able to provide.  If Dan had known that the
resources he used needed to have credit given, he would have done so
and I'm sure he's still willing to do so (in spite of the full on
attack that Steve decided to throw at him).

This leaves one other problem.  Steve, you've bad mouthed every single
person at the Pits now.  I personally don't appreciate being called a
crony, and much less do I appreciate being called a self-aggrandizing
egotist, especially by someone who doesn't even know me and appears to
have a bit of an excessive ego himself.  I had no intention of getting
involved in this discussion until you decided to implicate me by
default with your rant about everyone at the Pits.  It looks like you
may need to eat a little crow and apologize to some people, especially
Dan, Jan, and Goy.  I'm willing to let your comments about me and
others at the Pits slide, although I can't speak for the rest of the
guys there.  However, you've gone way overboard in bad mouthing Dan
and I strongly suspect he's not going to be willing to have any kind
of real discussion with you or Brent until some public apologies are
made.

So there it is.  You can go on the attack yet again or you can try to
repair the damage you've done.  This choice is yours.

My choice was to post a message in which I spoke candidly instead of
posting the kind of extremely sarcastic message that your great use of
the English language might inspire.  I did not try to avoid offending
you, as your statements and actions have left no room for me to speak
to how you've acted without having to use some questionable comments.

So why don't you make things right then get with Brent, sit down
calmly, and discuss what exact issues you have.  Then one or both of
you contact Dan and Jan and work them out, keeping in mind that your
perception of what is going on may not be the actual truth, especially
with regard to the idea that the track itself was copied.

I've never doubted your motorsports pedrigee, just questioned your methods
instead of your ideas. ;-)

-jde

I've only resubscribed to RAS recently because of an email I received
from Mr. Smith re: infineon long.  And to be honest, his name didn't
ring a bell (short term memory is a terrible thing to lose).  But, its
all come back to me now as to his credentials.  And I must say, this
thread has really been amazing.

Although there does appear to be some questions raised in one of the
replies in this convoluted thread, this is still NOT the place to
discuss it.  If someone had issues with the track, it should have been
brought to the attention of Mr. Olbuck, not shot out here.

I'm not a fan of roadies, except the trucks do well on them.  I am a fan
of Lime Rock MC for GPL..... my brab does quite well there and its lots
of fun.  Actually, my truck does well too, in 2k3, now that I've figured
out I needed to change from the OWR track.ini, and adjust the grip and
ai levels to my liking (and skill).

What I find amusing is that the 2k3 version is purportedly stated to be
inaccurate...... and the GPL version to be extremely accurate....... and
the 2k3 version is accused of being a rip-off of the GPL version.
Now..... that just doesn't make sense.  Whatever....... I've got both...
and they're both fun to drive.

And the GPL community needs to lighten up because they've
(unfortunately) been passed by a community that really doesn't care
(unfortunately) about piracy issues.  We've fought that battle since N4.
  these new kids don't care....... and GPL and N3 and NL etc are just
ancient history to them.  How many posts on boards do you see where
someone says "I've been playing this game forever..... since N4."  They
do not understand nor appreciate the older philosophies, nor do most
sites now support it.  And to a point, I agree.  These older games are
hard to come by now.

Now, as to "stealing" and converting someone else's work....... that may
be a different story.  But, outside of the blatant PWF ripoffs, its
often hard to tell if someone used a track or just borrowed a mip.  Most
2k3 tracks borrow a lot of mips ..... grandstands, crowds, trees, etc.

Its getting hard to keep what is orig. as orig.