rec.autos.simulators

Braking

Haqsa

Braking

by Haqsa » Tue, 27 Jan 2004 08:12:21

In almost every online race I have participated in recently there have been
a few guys who could brake in a much shorter distance than the others.  This
often adds up to a difference of as much as 2 seconds per lap.  I haven't
been concentrating on braking much because I have always been told that line
and exit speed are more important.  But some work with replay analyzers has
shown me that braking is my weakest point relative to the aliens and the
primary thing that is keeping me in the middle of the pack.  So I would
really like to hear from some of the experts.  How are you able to brake in
so much shorter distance than other people?  This happens even in fixed
setup leagues like RASCAR so I don't think it has anything to do with setup.
I also don't think it's equipment.  Some people just seem to have a better
feel for it than others, and I want that skill!  ;o)  Any hints you can give
would be highly appreciated, and probably not just by me.
Dave Henri

Braking

by Dave Henri » Tue, 27 Jan 2004 09:15:32


   In a similar vein, the TPTCC league just finished its round at Heartland Park.  
A track with many Square corners.  But in the back section there is a Quick
left/right/left between two straights and at the entrance to that I was loosing
1/2 second each lap to the guy behind me.  I'd spend the rest of the lap building
 up a small cushion only to see him chop off another big chunk at that one
corner entry.  
    At other times I have often heard, in Papyrus sims, cars behind me still at full
 power while I'm already lifting/braking and downshifting.  
   I kept waiting for the big rearend hit because I was lifting so much earlier than
the other cars.
  I can brake later...I just can't make the turn.  

dave henrie

Eldre

Braking

by Eldre » Tue, 27 Jan 2004 10:28:43



>    At other times I have often heard, in Papyrus sims, cars behind me still
>at full
> power while I'm already lifting/braking and downshifting.  
>   I kept waiting for the big rearend hit because I was lifting so much
>earlier than
>the other cars.
>  I can brake later...I just can't make the turn.  

Been there, done that.  It usually ends one of two ways:
1 - the trailing car spins trying to avoid me at a huge closing rate
2 - I get punted by the trailing car.  The excuse being, "You braked WAY too
early!"

Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
Member
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N2k3 rank:in progress

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Steve Smit

Braking

by Steve Smit » Tue, 27 Jan 2004 21:11:08

Braking has always been my worst "feature," in both real and simulated
braking.  I can't figure it out either...especially how guys can keep in
from looping with the extreme rear brake-bias often used in GPL.  There, the
explan. may be in simultaneous throttle+brake application (cf. prev.

apply to N2003, at least not to the same degree.

Then there's the "accordian effect" when the guy behind closes up under
braking.

Ultimately, I think some guys are just better than thee/me under braking.

The way I compensate is to focus on line and exit speed to the exclusion of
almost everything else.  That is, not to get so desperate w. my braking
efforts that I mess up the line (getting the car positioned for the exit)
and thus mess up my exit speed.

Plus making the car Double Wide going into the corner.  If they can't get
around me under braking, I can usually fend 'em off on the subsequent
straight.

P.S. If you find out what kind of Particle Physics (or other supernatural
force) is aiding these Aliens, lemme know, willya?


MadDAW

Braking

by MadDAW » Tue, 27 Jan 2004 21:36:20

I have no idea what type of wheel/pedal setup you have, but I just ditched
my red MOMO for a MSFF, and it made a world of differance.

MadDAWG

Steve Smit

Braking

by Steve Smit » Tue, 27 Jan 2004 22:10:59

Absolutely, Dawg.  My ECCI pedals were worth a second or two a lap almost
anywhere in GPL, and the TSW pedals I use with my Logi MOMO wheel are
likewise indispensible equipment.  You can't *begin* to modulate threshold
braking with the flimsy, short-throw plastic pedals that come with most
wheels.  Also, most third-party/aftermarket wheels allow you to very the
pedal pressure (ECCI had a pneumatic device that allowed you to adjust for a
*progressively* stiffer pedal), which is critical for dialing in the best
*feel*.


Byron John Forbe

Braking

by Byron John Forbe » Tue, 27 Jan 2004 22:11:57

   Since you mention this is also a problem in fixed setups, I suppose we
can count brake bias out. Obviously, the more rear brake bias you can handle
(up to the point just b4 the rears start to lock b4 the fronts of course),
the greater the braking potential of the car. So.....

   Firstly, the simple thing is the skills that come from experience ie laps
done. Being able to brake later is a matter of being able to

           a) handle heavy braking at high speeds, particularly with
aggressive brake bias
           b) Being able to throw the car into a corner and handle it -
notice the word "throw" rather than drive :)

    Both of these come from endless laps and endless daring! :) The best
drivers are expert at anticipating what the car is about to do and and
stopping it from doing it. The difference between aliens and the rest is
that a situation that results in most drivers losing control is a situation
that an alien sees as routine about a dozen times or more per lap. And these
natural/instincive recovery skills just get better over time - one gets a
feel for them.

   Also, being able to brake whilst turning in is crucial as well. This will
make a huge difference to anyone not presently doing this. And, of course,
the deeper the better.

   A few other things to tinker with whilst developing these skills are the
relationship between brake bias and the turn in characteristics of the
suspension. More rear brake bias makes the car turn in better under braking
but harder to handle. Less makes it turn in less but may inspire more
confidence and the ability to brake more aggressively. Have fun - do a lot
of laps and BE DARING. The more you walk the tightrope the better you get at
it. Just practice offline! :)


Ken MacKa

Braking

by Ken MacKa » Wed, 28 Jan 2004 01:13:00


> I haven't
> been concentrating on braking much because I have always been told that line
> and exit speed are more important.

Seems to me that the advice is "get line and exits right first, as they the most
important, and THEN work on braking to get the last bit".

I gpl the rumour is to use the tire squeal to determine the braking threshold,
you want just the faintest bit of squeal.  Trail-braking also helps, lets you go
  just a little bit deeper, but requires good control to keep on the line.
Still haven't figured it out for the TA mod yet, but do know that loud
screeching noises and smoke coming out from the fenders is past threshold. :-)

Do you have good resistance in your brake pedal?  A squash ball under mine made
a big difference, especially with left foot braking.

HTH
Ken

Mitch_

Braking

by Mitch_ » Wed, 28 Jan 2004 01:30:29

PMB2 Steve.  I just ordered a set thats Momo Force compatible :)


Josh Boudrea

Braking

by Josh Boudrea » Wed, 28 Jan 2004 02:19:40



Be sure to have engine braking also help the brakes. This makes a world
of a difference for stopping in a shorter distance. Don't pop the gears
down like an F1 car, but learn at which speed your gear rations have
which rpm When doing that, if you notice the tires going "squeak, squeak,
squeak" when you downshift, just give a little throttle to bring up the
engine rpm (heal-toe downshift).

As other have mentioned, finding the limit of the tire when braking also
help. With GPL the tire squeal was easier to judge with, but with NR2003
you'll have to experiment more. Find the point before the tires lockup.
My method for braking for most corners usually to apply full brake
pressure at the start of the brake point (harder to lock tires when going
faster) when gradually release some brake pressure and modulate if
needed.

Probably the ultimate corner to test this is the corner after the long
straight at Lemans (bsarthe track). You aproach that corner at 215mph (i
do anyway.. don't know about the aliens), so you have a long braking
zone. If you turn on the "race line" help, I find I am able to brake 2-3
car length later than the marked brake zone. If you brake for that corner
and just put on the brakes and don't downshift, its hard to even get the
corner at the marked brake point.

--
josh boudreau
josh at kfoo dot net

Steve Smit

Braking

by Steve Smit » Wed, 28 Jan 2004 03:41:43

Which hails into question the whole "trail braking" argument (braking whilst
turning).  In the same revelations re Schui and Rubens at Silver last year,
it's obvious that braking in a straight line makes the car slow down faster
(you're at the northern edge of the traction circle), but leaves yer inside
line unprotected.  Trail braking (you're at, say, the northwestern edge of
the circle diving into a righthand turn) allows you to brake later and avoid
spiking outside the circle during the transient, but requires a lot more
skill (Doug Arnao, wearing his driving instructor's hat--er, helmet--won't
teach this technique to any but his best students).  Using the throttle
whilst braking allows you to shift the weight rearward at will, thus
maximizing the available traction, but requires even more skill (and, in the
RW, Brembo brakes as big as manhole covers).  Professional driver on a
closed course.  Don't try this at home...except in your driveway (if it's
real long) or on yer 'puta.



>    Since you mention this is also a problem in fixed setups, I suppose we
> can count brake bias out. Obviously, the more rear brake bias you can
handle
> (up to the point just b4 the rears start to lock b4 the fronts of course),
> the greater the braking potential of the car. So.....

>    Firstly, the simple thing is the skills that come from experience ie
laps
> done. Being able to brake later is a matter of being able to

>            a) handle heavy braking at high speeds, particularly with
> aggressive brake bias
>            b) Being able to throw the car into a corner and handle it -
> notice the word "throw" rather than drive :)

>     Both of these come from endless laps and endless daring! :) The best
> drivers are expert at anticipating what the car is about to do and and
> stopping it from doing it. The difference between aliens and the rest is
> that a situation that results in most drivers losing control is a
situation
> that an alien sees as routine about a dozen times or more per lap. And
these
> natural/instincive recovery skills just get better over time - one gets a
> feel for them.

>    Also, being able to brake whilst turning in is crucial as well. This
will
> make a huge difference to anyone not presently doing this. And, of course,
> the deeper the better.

>    A few other things to tinker with whilst developing these skills are
the
> relationship between brake bias and the turn in characteristics of the
> suspension. More rear brake bias makes the car turn in better under
braking
> but harder to handle. Less makes it turn in less but may inspire more
> confidence and the ability to brake more aggressively. Have fun - do a lot
> of laps and BE DARING. The more you walk the tightrope the better you get
at
> it. Just practice offline! :)



> > In almost every online race I have participated in recently there have
> been
> > a few guys who could brake in a much shorter distance than the others.
> This
> > often adds up to a difference of as much as 2 seconds per lap.  I
haven't
> > been concentrating on braking much because I have always been told that
> line
> > and exit speed are more important.  But some work with replay analyzers
> has
> > shown me that braking is my weakest point relative to the aliens and the
> > primary thing that is keeping me in the middle of the pack.  So I would
> > really like to hear from some of the experts.  How are you able to brake
> in
> > so much shorter distance than other people?  This happens even in fixed
> > setup leagues like RASCAR so I don't think it has anything to do with
> setup.
> > I also don't think it's equipment.  Some people just seem to have a
better
> > feel for it than others, and I want that skill!  ;o)  Any hints you can
> give
> > would be highly appreciated, and probably not just by me.

Larr

Braking

by Larr » Wed, 28 Jan 2004 05:29:30

I think part of it may be analog pedals vs. digital pedals.

Digital Pedals, such as the MSFFW, have 64 'steps', or available output
levels.  Analog Pedals are near-infinite.

I think those with analog pedals are at a slight advantage here.

-Larry


Larr

Braking

by Larr » Wed, 28 Jan 2004 05:30:34

I've absolutely noticed that as well.

-Larry



jason moy

Braking

by jason moy » Wed, 28 Jan 2004 05:29:07

On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 07:36:20 -0500, "MadDAWG"


>I have no idea what type of wheel/pedal setup you have, but I just ditched
>my red MOMO for a MSFF, and it made a world of differance.

I have a non-FF Sidewinder and the pedals are pure heaven.  I went
through half a dozen wheels before this one and I now own 2.  Haven't
seen anything in the past 4 years I'd trade them for.

Jason

jason moy

Braking

by jason moy » Wed, 28 Jan 2004 05:31:38

On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 18:41:43 GMT, "Steve Smith"


> Don't try this at home...except in your driveway (if it's
>real long) or on yer 'puta.

Even on yer puta, if it's GPL, save that left foot for the
floor/clutch pedal. =p

Jason (RFB 4 EVER)


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