rec.autos.simulators

Nascar4 User Interface - This annoying on purpose?

Rick

Nascar4 User Interface - This annoying on purpose?

by Rick » Mon, 05 Mar 2001 08:49:22

The problem with Papyrus is it looks like they keep designing their user
interfaces after the games are written.  Their linear "race weekend"
paradigm in Nascar 4 is one of the most intrusive barriers to enjoyment
I've ever seen in a simulation.  Not only can you not save mid-race, an
unforgivable omission in my opinion, you cannot even restart the current
session without exiting the track and reloading it right back to where you
were before you had to exit.  This seven- or eight-click and 20- to 30-
second evolution has become very tiresome to me.  A lot of times I'll just
exit the whole damn game rather than sit through Yet Another Track Reload,
just so I can start the race from scratch AGAIN, just so the idiot AI car
behind me can ram me into the wall on the second turn AGAIN, just so I can
exit and wait while the track reloads just to do the whole thing over,
AGAIN.  

Since one track load can be used for the whole race weekend evolution
(assuming the player doesn't want to redo anything as there is no redo,
only exit, reload, and start over), the engine is obviously flexible enough
to reinitialize a session without having to exit and reload the track.  The
capability is there, why didn't they give us a button pointing to it for no
other reason than to save us from the redundant and time-consuming track
reload? There's currently a "next session" button, why isn't there a
"restart current" or even "previous session" button when all the data
reinitialization capabilities are there as they obviously already are.  If
I restart a race 30 times, that's 15 minutes I spend looking at the stupid
"loading" screen for no reason whatsoever other than someone at Papyrus
seems to think that maintaining the integrity of the "race weekend"
paradigm is more important than alleviating the frustration one experiences
when limited by such a linear gameplay design.  

Beyond saves and restarts, I don't even understand why you have to qualify
in the first place.  There ought to be a screen where you drag names from
the 2001 roster on the left to what grid position you want that driver to
be in on the right.  A "randomize" button (the same function
programmatically that currently resolves qual times) could fill in the rest
of the field with the remaining unselected drivers.  You could define
whether this was a starting grid or a mid-race restart under yellow
including the number of laps elapsed and number of laps since the lead cars
last pitted.  This is the kind of stuff that simulators do best and the
means by which we can extract the most enjoyment from them, yet N4 is
completely devoid of any such functionality.  It's unfathomable that the
game designer has decided that the only way I ought to get good track
position in this GAME is by actually going through the motions of
qualifying.  Those who enjoy qualifying, as I *sometimes* do, ought to be
able to do so to their heart's content.  But it shouldn't be the ONLY
avenue available to get to some quick dirty racing, and the bottom line is
those who don't enjoy qualifying, who bought or might buy N4 just to
experience SOME of the thrill of NASCAR racing and not necessarily every
last painful detail of it, are going to quit playing the game long before
they're going to change their minds and decide that qualifying and all
the other minutia is fun, and that's a deathknell for anyone who wants to
see Nascar 4 prosper.

Nor can you practice critical skills like in-race pitstops or last lap
sprints.  How are you ever supposed to get good at the physical and
strategic elements of pit-stopping if the only time you get to do it is
while running a real race?  Pit-stopping during a practice session doesn't
have anything to do with what it's like to pit under real race conditions
and the decisions that must be made accordingly.  No "what if I'd only
taken two tires that last stop?", "what if I'd splashed off instead of
taking a whole can of fuel -- would I have made it?", or even the simple,
"gosh, those last 20 laps were so fun I'd just like to play them over and
over and over again -- not the whole race, just those last 20 laps"?  How
are we supposed to get that kind of experience for real race conditions
when there's no way to go out and repetitively practice those evolutions
under real race conditions?  Except for those who have the time and
inclination to make excelling at Nascar 4 a primary objective of their
life, the only thing the rest of us casual gamers can get really good at is
race starts, because that's the only thing we get to do over and over and
over again, whether or not we want to.

It seems the only part of racing that Papyrus wants us to experience to is
how utterly frustrating it can be.  Um, thanks, but that's really not why I
buy ENTERTAINMENT software in the first place.  Despite its phenomenal new
physics engine, gorgeous graphics, and the "you-are-there" feeling it
invokes like no predecessor before it, I'm finding N4 to be an exceedingly
frustrating experience, all because of some mind-bogglingly restrictive and
short-sighted decisions regarding its user interface.

- Rick

Kevin Anderso

Nascar4 User Interface - This annoying on purpose?

by Kevin Anderso » Mon, 05 Mar 2001 10:44:23

Stop wrecking.

--
Kevin Anderson


Blues DeVill

Nascar4 User Interface - This annoying on purpose?

by Blues DeVill » Mon, 05 Mar 2001 11:08:34

Tell that to the AI....

Blues


> Stop wrecking.

Race15

Nascar4 User Interface - This annoying on purpose?

by Race15 » Mon, 05 Mar 2001 11:06:41

<WHEW!>  You sound a little stressed.  Damn! It wore me out just to read it!
<BIG GRIN>
Mike
Don Burnett

Nascar4 User Interface - This annoying on purpose?

by Don Burnett » Mon, 05 Mar 2001 13:47:01

ROTFLMAO

--
Don Burnette
D Burnette in N4

Some people do nothing wrong.
The problem is, they do nothing.
And THAT is wrong.


> Stop wrecking.

> --
> Kevin Anderson



> > The problem with Papyrus is it looks like they keep designing their user
> > interfaces after the games are written.  Their linear "race weekend"
> > paradigm in Nascar 4 is one of the most intrusive barriers to enjoyment
> > I've ever seen in a simulation.  Not only can you not save mid-race, an
> > unforgivable omission in my opinion, you cannot even restart the current
> > session without exiting the track and reloading it right back to where
you
> > were before you had to exit.  This seven- or eight-click and 20- to 30-
> > second evolution has become very tiresome to me.  A lot of times I'll
just
> > exit the whole damn game rather than sit through Yet Another Track
Reload,
> > just so I can start the race from scratch AGAIN, just so the idiot AI
car
> > behind me can ram me into the wall on the second turn AGAIN, just so I
can
> > exit and wait while the track reloads just to do the whole thing over,
> > AGAIN.

> > Since one track load can be used for the whole race weekend evolution
> > (assuming the player doesn't want to redo anything as there is no redo,
> > only exit, reload, and start over), the engine is obviously flexible
> enough
> > to reinitialize a session without having to exit and reload the track.
> The
> > capability is there, why didn't they give us a button pointing to it for
> no
> > other reason than to save us from the redundant and time-consuming track
> > reload? There's currently a "next session" button, why isn't there a
> > "restart current" or even "previous session" button when all the data
> > reinitialization capabilities are there as they obviously already are.
If
> > I restart a race 30 times, that's 15 minutes I spend looking at the
stupid
> > "loading" screen for no reason whatsoever other than someone at Papyrus
> > seems to think that maintaining the integrity of the "race weekend"
> > paradigm is more important than alleviating the frustration one
> experiences
> > when limited by such a linear gameplay design.

> > Beyond saves and restarts, I don't even understand why you have to
qualify
> > in the first place.  There ought to be a screen where you drag names
from
> > the 2001 roster on the left to what grid position you want that driver
to
> > be in on the right.  A "randomize" button (the same function
> > programmatically that currently resolves qual times) could fill in the
> rest
> > of the field with the remaining unselected drivers.  You could define
> > whether this was a starting grid or a mid-race restart under yellow
> > including the number of laps elapsed and number of laps since the lead
> cars
> > last pitted.  This is the kind of stuff that simulators do best and the
> > means by which we can extract the most enjoyment from them, yet N4 is
> > completely devoid of any such functionality.  It's unfathomable that the
> > game designer has decided that the only way I ought to get good track
> > position in this GAME is by actually going through the motions of
> > qualifying.  Those who enjoy qualifying, as I *sometimes* do, ought to
be
> > able to do so to their heart's content.  But it shouldn't be the ONLY
> > avenue available to get to some quick dirty racing, and the bottom line
is
> > those who don't enjoy qualifying, who bought or might buy N4 just to
> > experience SOME of the thrill of NASCAR racing and not necessarily every
> > last painful detail of it, are going to quit playing the game long
before
> > they're going to change their minds and decide that qualifying and all
> > the other minutia is fun, and that's a deathknell for anyone who wants
to
> > see Nascar 4 prosper.

> > Nor can you practice critical skills like in-race pitstops or last lap
> > sprints.  How are you ever supposed to get good at the physical and
> > strategic elements of pit-stopping if the only time you get to do it is
> > while running a real race?  Pit-stopping during a practice session
doesn't
> > have anything to do with what it's like to pit under real race
conditions
> > and the decisions that must be made accordingly.  No "what if I'd only
> > taken two tires that last stop?", "what if I'd splashed off instead of
> > taking a whole can of fuel -- would I have made it?", or even the
simple,
> > "gosh, those last 20 laps were so fun I'd just like to play them over
and
> > over and over again -- not the whole race, just those last 20 laps"?
How
> > are we supposed to get that kind of experience for real race conditions
> > when there's no way to go out and repetitively practice those evolutions
> > under real race conditions?  Except for those who have the time and
> > inclination to make excelling at Nascar 4 a primary objective of their
> > life, the only thing the rest of us casual gamers can get really good at
> is
> > race starts, because that's the only thing we get to do over and over
and
> > over again, whether or not we want to.

> > It seems the only part of racing that Papyrus wants us to experience to
is
> > how utterly frustrating it can be.  Um, thanks, but that's really not
why
> I
> > buy ENTERTAINMENT software in the first place.  Despite its phenomenal
new
> > physics engine, gorgeous graphics, and the "you-are-there" feeling it
> > invokes like no predecessor before it, I'm finding N4 to be an
exceedingly
> > frustrating experience, all because of some mind-bogglingly restrictive
> and
> > short-sighted decisions regarding its user interface.

> > - Rick

Rick

Nascar4 User Interface - This annoying on purpose?

by Rick » Mon, 05 Mar 2001 14:02:53


>Stop wrecking.

Fair enough.  And the way to do that is?  Practice.  

Once again, for those who didn't get it the first time <ahem>, the problem
is in order to get practice in N4, you have to keeping loading the track
every time you make a single mistake, or everytime the AI decides it
wants your line which is about every other turn, so you end up spending as
much time looking at the "Loading" screen as you do practicing.  Even if
one wants to follow your sage advice, N4 forces them to do it in perhaps
the most ineffecient way possible.  Kudos to you for reinforcing my point.

Regards,
Rick

Rick

Nascar4 User Interface - This annoying on purpose?

by Rick » Mon, 05 Mar 2001 14:15:01


><WHEW!>  You sound a little stressed.  Damn! It wore me out just to read
><it! BIG GRIN>

Not stressed, just irriated. :)  Another great game engine marred by an
uncommonly illogical and inefficient user interface.  I don't understand
how people who are paid to do nothing else but game design can do such a
horrible job, or how management could not be close enough to their product
to know that its menu is a restrictive burden rather than an invition to
play the game anyway one might want to play it.

A five-year-old, or a seasoned NASCAR veteran, would pick up N4 and ask,
"Ok, how do you get into a good race, and how do I reset it if [when] I
***up at first?"  The answer to both those questions in N4 is wholly
unsatisfactory to the most casual observer.

Verbosely yours,
Rick

Jon Wille

Nascar4 User Interface - This annoying on purpose?

by Jon Wille » Mon, 05 Mar 2001 14:58:01

The UI problems you describe are symptoms of a larger issue: Papyrus
didn't design a NASCAR game, but rather a driving sim.  NASCAR Racing
gameplay hasn't changed.  There is no:

  * rain
  * second-round qualifying
  * rule changes
  * sponsorship-laden career mode (like DTR)
  * Bud shootout
  * Daytona qualifying races
  * Winston all-star race
  * story (am I a rookie, an Indy drop out, ...?)
  * victory lane

N4 has only just discovered the difference between race and qualifying
engines.  Also, I've noticed that the AI now seem to have team
loyalty.  I see Bobby Labonte and Tony Stewart ride around together,
as well as Dale Jr. and Michael Waltrip.

The game lacks character.  How about a shrub impersonator to start the
Texas race, or an Elvis impersonator to start the Vegas race?


>It seems the only part of racing that Papyrus wants us to experience to is
>how utterly frustrating it can be.  Um, thanks, but that's really not why I
>buy ENTERTAINMENT software in the first place.  Despite its phenomenal new
>physics engine, gorgeous graphics, and the "you-are-there" feeling it
>invokes like no predecessor before it, I'm finding N4 to be an exceedingly
>frustrating experience, all because of some mind-bogglingly restrictive and
>short-sighted decisions regarding its user interface.

--

Brian Carabe

Nascar4 User Interface - This annoying on purpose?

by Brian Carabe » Mon, 05 Mar 2001 15:26:21

Rick,

I agree with every point you've made here. The bottom line is that Papy is
short-sighted in interface development and also the game was released way
before it was finished. I can't think of any other industry (other than the
software publishing industry) where bringing an incomplete, partially
functioning commodity to market is not illegal.

It is that way because we accept it, plain and simple. I am so tired of
buying software that doesn't do what the publisher says it will do.

Brian


Jari Jokine

Nascar4 User Interface - This annoying on purpose?

by Jari Jokine » Mon, 05 Mar 2001 23:47:48

I would prefer clean and optimized interface in simulations. No background
images, quick navigating etc. For example, all setup could be in one page.

Jari Jokinen

Jerry Jona

Nascar4 User Interface - This annoying on purpose?

by Jerry Jona » Tue, 06 Mar 2001 00:07:41

agree !!!!!!!!


Marc Collin

Nascar4 User Interface - This annoying on purpose?

by Marc Collin » Tue, 06 Mar 2001 01:40:15

The AI stupidity really makes this tiresome, you are right.  I think if that
were eliminated, the necessity to do this routine would be dependent solely
on our own stupidity...which is easier to swallow, at least for me.

I run mostly practise mode (with a full field) where I can hit Shift-R every
time the AI needlessly generate a 20 car pile-up or try to drive through me
as though I wasn't there.

Marc.


E.V.Phelp

Nascar4 User Interface - This annoying on purpose?

by E.V.Phelp » Tue, 06 Mar 2001 01:44:33

i have to agree wholeheartedly .
my spin on this ,is why do game developers insist on building full screen
gui's at all?
what's wrong with the windows one ,i quite like it myself.....
bottom line ,these guys have their heads up their bottoms...
the only bit of a game that should run full screen ,should be the game....
and i should be able to adjust everything ,how can i beta the thing if i
dont have access to it's functions?
you are correct ,rick ,in that if this is not deliberate ,then it belies a
level of sloth ,incompetence and deviousness that borders way beyond
criminality ....

'nuffsed

John DiFoo

Nascar4 User Interface - This annoying on purpose?

by John DiFoo » Tue, 06 Mar 2001 03:07:03


> Tell that to the AI....

> Blues


> > Stop wrecking.

    Indeed.  Doesn't the AI have a spotter that >tells<
him "car inside?"  Apparently not...

    John DiFool

John DiFoo

Nascar4 User Interface - This annoying on purpose?

by John DiFoo » Tue, 06 Mar 2001 03:12:56


> The AI stupidity really makes this tiresome, you are right.  I think if that
> were eliminated, the necessity to do this routine would be dependent solely
> on our own stupidity...which is easier to swallow, at least for me.

> I run mostly practise mode (with a full field) where I can hit Shift-R every
> time the AI needlessly generate a 20 car pile-up or try to drive through me
> as though I wasn't there.

> Marc.

     Well, that's because the AI often drives >through< itself as if the other
car isn't there all the time!  I'll often see cars in the high groove at 'Dega
merging like that (hardly ever crashing).  So I guess it expects to pass
through the human player like a ghost too, hence the wrecks...

    John DiFool


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