Now Rick I can get behind this version of your rant.
$
$>Stop wrecking.
$
$Fair enough. And the way to do that is? Practice.
$
$Once again, for those who didn't get it the first time <ahem>, the
problem
$is in order to get practice in N4, you have to keeping loading the
track
$every time you make a single mistake, or everytime the AI decides it
$wants your line which is about every other turn, so you end up
spending as
$much time looking at the "Loading" screen as you do practicing. Even
if
$one wants to follow your sage advice, N4 forces them to do it in
perhaps
$the most ineffecient way possible. Kudos to you for reinforcing my
point.
$
$Regards,
$Rick
> >Beyond saves and restarts, I don't even understand why you have to
> >qualify in the first place. There ought to be a screen where you drag
> >names from the 2001 roster on the left to what grid position you want
> >that driver to be in on the right.
> If this was implemented, we could all download the real starting grid
> for the Winston Cup race every weekend. I think that'd be pretty cool.
> >Stop wrecking.
> Fair enough. And the way to do that is? Practice.
> Once again, for those who didn't get it the first time <ahem>, the problem
> is in order to get practice in N4, you have to keeping loading the track
> every time you make a single mistake, or everytime the AI decides it
> wants your line which is about every other turn, so you end up spending as
> much time looking at the "Loading" screen as you do practicing. Even if
> one wants to follow your sage advice, N4 forces them to do it in perhaps
> the most ineffecient way possible. Kudos to you for reinforcing my point.
> Regards,
> Rick
WSC will be the only game that is truly from scratch that will be worth
anything
- Rick
>> >Beyond saves and restarts, I don't even understand why you have to
>> >qualify in the first place. There ought to be a screen where you
>> >drag names from the 2001 roster on the left to what grid position you
>> >want that driver to be in on the right.
>> If this was implemented, we could all download the real starting grid
>> for the Winston Cup race every weekend. I think that'd be pretty
>> cool.
> --
> Don Burnette
> D Burnette in N4
> Some people do nothing wrong.
> The problem is, they do nothing.
> And THAT is wrong.
> > Stop wrecking.
> > --
> > Kevin Anderson
> > > The problem with Papyrus is it looks like they keep designing their user
> > > interfaces after the games are written. Their linear "race weekend"
> > > paradigm in Nascar 4 is one of the most intrusive barriers to enjoyment
> > > I've ever seen in a simulation. Not only can you not save mid-race, an
> > > unforgivable omission in my opinion, you cannot even restart the current
> > > session without exiting the track and reloading it right back to where
> you
> > > were before you had to exit. This seven- or eight-click and 20- to 30-
> > > second evolution has become very tiresome to me. A lot of times I'll
> just
> > > exit the whole damn game rather than sit through Yet Another Track
> Reload,
> > > just so I can start the race from scratch AGAIN, just so the idiot AI
> car
> > > behind me can ram me into the wall on the second turn AGAIN, just so I
> can
> > > exit and wait while the track reloads just to do the whole thing over,
> > > AGAIN.
> > > Since one track load can be used for the whole race weekend evolution
> > > (assuming the player doesn't want to redo anything as there is no redo,
> > > only exit, reload, and start over), the engine is obviously flexible
> > enough
> > > to reinitialize a session without having to exit and reload the track.
> > The
> > > capability is there, why didn't they give us a button pointing to it for
> > no
> > > other reason than to save us from the redundant and time-consuming track
> > > reload? There's currently a "next session" button, why isn't there a
> > > "restart current" or even "previous session" button when all the data
> > > reinitialization capabilities are there as they obviously already are.
> If
> > > I restart a race 30 times, that's 15 minutes I spend looking at the
> stupid
> > > "loading" screen for no reason whatsoever other than someone at Papyrus
> > > seems to think that maintaining the integrity of the "race weekend"
> > > paradigm is more important than alleviating the frustration one
> > experiences
> > > when limited by such a linear gameplay design.
> > > Beyond saves and restarts, I don't even understand why you have to
> qualify
> > > in the first place. There ought to be a screen where you drag names
> from
> > > the 2001 roster on the left to what grid position you want that driver
> to
> > > be in on the right. A "randomize" button (the same function
> > > programmatically that currently resolves qual times) could fill in the
> > rest
> > > of the field with the remaining unselected drivers. You could define
> > > whether this was a starting grid or a mid-race restart under yellow
> > > including the number of laps elapsed and number of laps since the lead
> > cars
> > > last pitted. This is the kind of stuff that simulators do best and the
> > > means by which we can extract the most enjoyment from them, yet N4 is
> > > completely devoid of any such functionality. It's unfathomable that the
> > > game designer has decided that the only way I ought to get good track
> > > position in this GAME is by actually going through the motions of
> > > qualifying. Those who enjoy qualifying, as I *sometimes* do, ought to
> be
> > > able to do so to their heart's content. But it shouldn't be the ONLY
> > > avenue available to get to some quick dirty racing, and the bottom line
> is
> > > those who don't enjoy qualifying, who bought or might buy N4 just to
> > > experience SOME of the thrill of NASCAR racing and not necessarily every
> > > last painful detail of it, are going to quit playing the game long
> before
> > > they're going to change their minds and decide that qualifying and all
> > > the other minutia is fun, and that's a deathknell for anyone who wants
> to
> > > see Nascar 4 prosper.
> > > Nor can you practice critical skills like in-race pitstops or last lap
> > > sprints. How are you ever supposed to get good at the physical and
> > > strategic elements of pit-stopping if the only time you get to do it is
> > > while running a real race? Pit-stopping during a practice session
> doesn't
> > > have anything to do with what it's like to pit under real race
> conditions
> > > and the decisions that must be made accordingly. No "what if I'd only
> > > taken two tires that last stop?", "what if I'd splashed off instead of
> > > taking a whole can of fuel -- would I have made it?", or even the
> simple,
> > > "gosh, those last 20 laps were so fun I'd just like to play them over
> and
> > > over and over again -- not the whole race, just those last 20 laps"?
> How
> > > are we supposed to get that kind of experience for real race conditions
> > > when there's no way to go out and repetitively practice those evolutions
> > > under real race conditions? Except for those who have the time and
> > > inclination to make excelling at Nascar 4 a primary objective of their
> > > life, the only thing the rest of us casual gamers can get really good at
> > is
> > > race starts, because that's the only thing we get to do over and over
> and
> > > over again, whether or not we want to.
> > > It seems the only part of racing that Papyrus wants us to experience to
> is
> > > how utterly frustrating it can be. Um, thanks, but that's really not
> why
> > I
> > > buy ENTERTAINMENT software in the first place. Despite its phenomenal
> new
> > > physics engine, gorgeous graphics, and the "you-are-there" feeling it
> > > invokes like no predecessor before it, I'm finding N4 to be an
> exceedingly
> > > frustrating experience, all because of some mind-bogglingly restrictive
> > and
> > > short-sighted decisions regarding its user interface.
> > > - Rick
> > Tell that to the AI....
> > Blues
> > > Stop wrecking.
> Indeed. Doesn't the AI have a spotter that >tells<
> him "car inside?" Apparently not...
> John DiFool
> I agree with every point you've made here. The bottom line is that Papy is
> short-sighted in interface development and also the game was released way
> before it was finished. I can't think of any other industry (other than
the
> software publishing industry) where bringing an incomplete, partially
> functioning commodity to market is not illegal.
> It is that way because we accept it, plain and simple. I am so tired of
> buying software that doesn't do what the publisher says it will do.
> Brian
> > The problem with Papyrus is it looks like they keep designing their user
> > interfaces after the games are written. Their linear "race weekend"
> > paradigm in Nascar 4 is one of the most intrusive barriers to enjoyment
> > I've ever seen in a simulation. Not only can you not save mid-race, an
> > unforgivable omission in my opinion, you cannot even restart the current
> > session without exiting the track and reloading it right back to where
you
> > were before you had to exit. This seven- or eight-click and 20- to 30-
> > second evolution has become very tiresome to me. A lot of times I'll
just
> > exit the whole damn game rather than sit through Yet Another Track
Reload,
> > just so I can start the race from scratch AGAIN, just so the idiot AI
car
> > behind me can ram me into the wall on the second turn AGAIN, just so I
can
> > exit and wait while the track reloads just to do the whole thing over,
> > AGAIN.
> > Since one track load can be used for the whole race weekend evolution
> > (assuming the player doesn't want to redo anything as there is no redo,
> > only exit, reload, and start over), the engine is obviously flexible
> enough
> > to reinitialize a session without having to exit and reload the track.
> The
> > capability is there, why didn't they give us a button pointing to it for
> no
> > other reason than to save us from the redundant and time-consuming track
> > reload? There's currently a "next session" button, why isn't there a
> > "restart current" or even "previous session" button when all the data
> > reinitialization capabilities are there as they obviously already are.
If
> > I restart a race 30 times, that's 15 minutes I spend looking at the
stupid
> > "loading" screen for no reason whatsoever other than someone at Papyrus
> > seems to think that maintaining the integrity of the "race weekend"
> > paradigm is more important than alleviating the frustration one
> experiences
> > when limited by such a linear gameplay design.
> > Beyond saves and restarts, I don't even understand why you have to
qualify
> > in the first place. There ought to be a screen where you drag names
from
> > the 2001 roster on the left to what grid position you want that driver
to
> > be in on the right. A "randomize" button (the same function
> > programmatically that currently resolves qual times) could fill in the
> rest
> > of the field with the remaining unselected drivers. You could define
> > whether this was a starting grid or a mid-race restart under yellow
> > including the number of laps elapsed and number of laps since the lead
> cars
> > last pitted. This is the kind of stuff that simulators do best and the
> > means by which we can extract the most enjoyment from them, yet N4 is
> > completely devoid of any such functionality. It's unfathomable that the
> > game designer has decided that the only way I ought to get good track
> > position in this GAME is by actually going through the motions of
> > qualifying. Those who enjoy qualifying, as I *sometimes* do, ought to
be
> > able to do so to their heart's content. But it shouldn't be the ONLY
> > avenue available to get to some quick dirty racing, and the bottom line
is
> > those who don't enjoy qualifying, who bought or might buy N4 just to
> > experience SOME of the thrill of NASCAR racing and not necessarily every
> > last painful detail of it, are going to quit playing the game long
before
> > they're going to change their minds and decide that qualifying and all
> > the other minutia is fun, and that's a deathknell for anyone who wants
to
> > see Nascar 4 prosper.
> > Nor can you practice critical skills like in-race pitstops or last lap
> > sprints. How are you ever supposed to get good at the physical and
> > strategic elements of pit-stopping if the only time you get to do it is
> > while running a real race? Pit-stopping during a practice session
doesn't
> > have anything to do with what it's like to pit under real race
conditions
> > and the decisions that must be made accordingly. No "what if I'd only
> > taken two tires that last stop?", "what if I'd splashed off instead of
> > taking a whole can of fuel -- would I have made it?", or even the
simple,
> > "gosh, those last 20 laps were so fun I'd just like to play them over
and
> > over and over again -- not the whole race, just those last 20 laps"?
How
> > are we supposed to get that kind of experience for real race conditions
> > when there's no way to go out and repetitively practice those evolutions
> > under real race conditions? Except for those who have the time and
> > inclination to make excelling at Nascar 4 a primary objective of their
> > life, the only thing the rest of us casual gamers can get really good at
> is
> > race starts, because that's the only thing we get to do over and over
and
> > over again, whether or not we want to.
> > It seems the only part of racing that Papyrus wants us to experience to
is
> > how utterly frustrating it can be. Um, thanks, but that's really not
why
> I
> > buy ENTERTAINMENT software in the first place. Despite its phenomenal
new
> > physics engine, gorgeous graphics, and the "you-are-there" feeling it
> > invokes like no predecessor before it, I'm finding N4 to be an
exceedingly
> > frustrating experience, all because of some mind-bogglingly restrictive
> and
> > short-sighted decisions regarding its user interface.
> > - Rick
> I run mostly practise mode (with a full field) where I can hit Shift-R
every
> time the AI needlessly generate a 20 car pile-up or try to drive through
me
> as though I wasn't there.
> Marc.
> > The problem with Papyrus is it looks like they keep designing their user
> > interfaces after the games are written. Their linear "race weekend"
> > paradigm in Nascar 4 is one of the most intrusive barriers to enjoyment
> > I've ever seen in a simulation. Not only can you not save mid-race, an
> > unforgivable omission in my opinion, you cannot even restart the current
> > session without exiting the track and reloading it right back to where
you
> > were before you had to exit. This seven- or eight-click and 20- to 30-
> > second evolution has become very tiresome to me. A lot of times I'll
just
> > exit the whole damn game rather than sit through Yet Another Track
Reload,
> > just so I can start the race from scratch AGAIN, just so the idiot AI
car
> > behind me can ram me into the wall on the second turn AGAIN, just so I
can
> > exit and wait while the track reloads just to do the whole thing over,
> > AGAIN.
> > Since one track load can be used for the whole race weekend evolution
> > (assuming the player doesn't want to redo anything as there is no redo,
> > only exit, reload, and start over), the engine is obviously flexible
> enough
> > to reinitialize a session without having to exit and reload the track.
> The
> > capability is there, why didn't they give us a button pointing to it for
> no
> > other reason than to save us from the redundant and time-consuming track
> > reload? There's currently a "next session" button, why isn't there a
> > "restart current" or even "previous session" button when all the data
> > reinitialization capabilities are there as they obviously already are.
If
> > I restart a race 30 times, that's 15 minutes I spend looking at the
stupid
> > "loading" screen for no reason whatsoever other than someone at Papyrus
> > seems to think that maintaining the integrity of the "race weekend"
> > paradigm is more important than alleviating the frustration one
> experiences
> > when limited by such a linear gameplay design.
> > Beyond saves and restarts, I don't even understand why you have to
qualify
> > in the first place. There ought to be a screen where you drag names
from
> > the 2001 roster on the left to what grid position you want that driver
to
> > be in on the right. A "randomize" button (the same function
> > programmatically that currently resolves qual times) could fill in the
> rest
> > of the field with the remaining unselected drivers. You could define
> > whether this was a starting grid or a mid-race restart under yellow
> > including the number of laps elapsed and number of laps since the lead
> cars
> > last pitted. This is the kind of stuff that simulators do best and the
> > means by which we can extract the most enjoyment from them, yet N4 is
> > completely devoid of any such functionality. It's unfathomable that the
> > game designer has decided that the only way I ought to get good track
> > position in this GAME is by actually going through the motions of
> > qualifying. Those who enjoy qualifying, as I *sometimes* do, ought to
be
> > able to do so to their heart's content. But it shouldn't be the ONLY
> > avenue available to get to some quick dirty racing, and the bottom line
is
> > those who don't enjoy qualifying, who bought or might buy N4 just to
> > experience SOME of the thrill of NASCAR racing and not necessarily every
> > last painful detail of it, are going to quit playing the game long
before
> > they're going to change their minds and decide that qualifying and all
> > the other minutia is fun, and that's a deathknell for anyone who wants
to
> > see Nascar 4 prosper.
> > Nor can you practice critical skills like in-race pitstops or last lap
> > sprints. How are you ever supposed to get good at the physical and
> > strategic elements of pit-stopping if the only time you get to do it is
> > while running a real race? Pit-stopping during a practice session
doesn't
> > have anything to do with what it's like to pit under real race
conditions
> > and the decisions that must be made accordingly. No "what if I'd only
> > taken two tires that last stop?", "what if I'd splashed off instead of
> > taking a whole can of fuel -- would I have made it?", or even the
simple,
> > "gosh, those last 20 laps were so fun I'd just like to play them over
and
> > over and over again -- not the whole race, just those last 20 laps"?
How
> > are we supposed to get that kind of experience for real race conditions
> > when there's no way to go out and repetitively practice those evolutions
> > under real race conditions? Except for those who have the time and
> > inclination to make excelling at Nascar 4 a primary objective of their
> > life, the only thing the rest of us casual gamers can get really good at
> is
> > race starts, because that's the only thing we get to do over and over
and
> > over again, whether or not we want to.
> > It seems the only part of racing that Papyrus wants us to experience to
is
> > how utterly frustrating it can be. Um, thanks, but that's really not
why
> I
> > buy ENTERTAINMENT software in the first place. Despite its phenomenal
new
> > physics engine, gorgeous graphics, and the "you-are-there" feeling it
> > invokes like no predecessor before it, I'm finding N4 to be an
exceedingly
> > frustrating experience, all because of some mind-bogglingly restrictive
> and
> > short-sighted decisions regarding its user interface.
> > - Rick
You mention that we need more situational awareness. You apparently are
quite unaware of the glaring problems with the AI. They do in fact try to
drive through you. They are also almost completely unaware of your existence
on the track. From your messages, it is apparent that your style of driving
is that you avoid getting in the way of the AI drivers, and you call this
"situational awareness". I submit that avoiding lines of cars that just
drive around the rack in a robotic fashion does not constitute a racing
simulator. All of us in this newsgroup can drive to carefully avoid the Ai
drivers, but then we wouldn't be driving competitively, would we?
Brian
> > The AI stupidity really makes this tiresome, you are right. I think if
> that
> > were eliminated, the necessity to do this routine would be dependent
> solely
> > on our own stupidity...which is easier to swallow, at least for me.
> > I run mostly practise mode (with a full field) where I can hit Shift-R
> every
> > time the AI needlessly generate a 20 car pile-up or try to drive through
> me
> > as though I wasn't there.
> > Marc.
Marc.
> You mention that we need more situational awareness. You apparently are
> quite unaware of the glaring problems with the AI. They do in fact try to
> drive through you. They are also almost completely unaware of your
existence
> on the track. From your messages, it is apparent that your style of
driving
> is that you avoid getting in the way of the AI drivers, and you call this
> "situational awareness". I submit that avoiding lines of cars that just
> drive around the rack in a robotic fashion does not constitute a racing
> simulator. All of us in this newsgroup can drive to carefully avoid the Ai
> drivers, but then we wouldn't be driving competitively, would we?
> Brian
> > The ai have never tried to drive through me yall need more situational
> > awareness.
> > > The AI stupidity really makes this tiresome, you are right. I think
if
> > that
> > > were eliminated, the necessity to do this routine would be dependent
> > solely
> > > on our own stupidity...which is easier to swallow, at least for me.
> > > I run mostly practise mode (with a full field) where I can hit Shift-R
> > every
> > > time the AI needlessly generate a 20 car pile-up or try to drive
through
> > me
> > > as though I wasn't there.
> > > Marc.
--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.ymenard.com/
-- People think it must be fun to be a genius, but they don't realise how
hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.
> WSC will be the only game that is truly from scratch that will be worth
> anything
--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.ymenard.com/
-- People think it must be fun to be a genius, but they don't realise how
hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.
Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPL F1 hcp. +28.67...F2 +151.26...F3 hcp. +373.73
Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
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