rec.autos.simulators

What will it take to make you give up GPL???

Tom Pabs

What will it take to make you give up GPL???

by Tom Pabs » Thu, 16 Dec 1999 04:00:00

Mike...

You are exactly right!  You can thank Sierra once again....for that!  The
downgrading of Viper Racing from a "sports car" racing sim (several
well-known sports cars of the Viper class were to be included in the
"game").....was primarily due to Sierra dictating "release conditions" to
MGI.  Additionally, a "patch" was created with lots of upgrades to the
***pit, UI screens, sound, weather, spotter, etc.......was "killed" by
Sierra....even after it had already been created (I know...I helped create
several of the items in this patch).

Clearly.....Sierra is in the mas-production, pc-game business.  Papyrus is
in the racing simulator production business.  The two don't mix!  That
doesn't make Sierra "the bad guy"......or Papyrus the "good guy."

The "revenue" model for making a profit on a racing sim is completely
different than that for pc-games!  A company will emerge that will know
this.......produce what "you" want.....but are you willing to pay for it?

        Here's an idea of what it would be....and cost you (the user):

                A gpl-like racing sim with modern race cars......several
types (classes) modeled in the same simulation...but probably not both open
wheel, and closed wheel (sedan/GT type cars) in the same sim (would you buy
two of these?).  A small number (probably not more than six to ten
total).......but highly detailed and accurate race tracks would be included
in the "base" simulation program.  Add-on tracks would be produced on an
ongoing basis....and could be purchased "at will" by users (probably via
Internet download and credit card sale).  Upgrades, patches would be
available for the tracks.....and when new equipment (controllers, sound
cards, video cards, etc.) came into the market......but they would need to
be paid for also.  The sim would be "generic" in the sense that it would be
"cars" and "tracks"...but not carrying the names of the "brands" and track
names in real racing.  The "licensing fees" structure has gone way through
the roof......its one of the biggest problem out there in producing
profitable racing simulations.  And last but not least.....there would be no
AI cars.  This would be a human-to-human Internet racing
simulation......period!  This will not be distributed through standard
retail "***" stores or Internet sites...and it won't be highly advertised
in the traditional "*** biz" rags.  But, it will be highly visible in all
the real racing world magazines and at race tracks during "event races"
(like at all Winston Cup, CART, IRL racing events).

The "numbers" will look something like this:

        Base price (6 - 10 race car types....and 6-10 race
tracks)...............$200.00

        Additional
tracks.....................................................................
$50.00 each

        Core Patches and Upgrades (not bug
fixes)...............................    $30.00 each

        A "Companion" Racing School/Driver Licensing - Add-on pack....
$75.00

Well...those are "the numbers"......in ballpark form!

Is there a market out there for this racing simulation?  Maybe we're going
to find out.

Regards,

Tom Pabst

PS.  "Hello" to all of you who I have missed......not talking to you in the
various newsgroups, website forums and race chat rooms has been very much
missed by me....as well as not being able to "just race" much myself either.
I've been a little busy....but I'll catch up with all of you soon!



> > Well.....
> > Since GPL hcame along, I haven't heard a good word for another sim, I
> > haven't bought any other sims in the past year because I'm told they are
> > crap, but I'm realizing now that people hear ad-mouth quite good games
> > becaseu you jsut can't give up GPL.....

> > ....... well, there has to come a time when you say...oh, yes, this is
the
> > new GPL!!

> > What does that sim need?

> > The best I have heard in the last year is...."It has potential but still
> > does not rate like GPL......."

> > Thats the absolute BEST thing I have heard about any sim since
GPL........

> > .......what will it take to un-hipnotize you???

> A sim that is as hard as GPL! ;-)

> Seriously, I'd say a sim that gives the same feel of being in the car
> as GPL,
> A sim that models all the effects that GPL has,
> A sim that is as close, or closer to driving a real car as GPL that GPL
> gives

>   When all of the above is met, I'll be racing GPL *AND* the new Sim.
> GPL, to date, is in a class of it's own! Unfortunately, there's too many
> people out there that think that a Sim has to be a game, or has to be
> easy to be enjoyed.

> The closest Sim that would work would have to be Viper Racing.  If it
> had the capability of racing 20+ drivers online and had tracks that
> resembled (or closer resembled) real tracks.. Viper would have been in
> direct competition with GPL.  I think those are the only reasons why
> Viper Racing is seldom heard on this NG.  In my opinion, Viper Racing is
> a Sim that was degraded or marketed for the arcade racers.
> --
> =========================================
> Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing?
> =========================================
> http://www.racesimcentral.net/

> Racing online with the help of......

> Race Communications Association
> Holodyne Engineering
> Mystic Music
> (have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here)

Tom Pabs

What will it take to make you give up GPL???

by Tom Pabs » Thu, 16 Dec 1999 04:00:00

Francois...

I'll take both....thank you.  And, I'll bet you everyone else will too!

Tom Pabst



> > Since GPL hcame along, I haven't heard a good word for another sim, I
> > haven't bought any other sims in the past year because I'm told they are
> > crap, but I'm realizing now that people hear ad-mouth quite good games
> > becaseu you jsut can't give up GPL.....

> Still, you fail to understand the meaning of this group.  It's called
> REC.AUTOS.SIMULATORS, it's about a bunch of *** racing simulation
> freaks.  We promote having a more realistic game engine and gameplay tools
> over good looking graphics and lens flare.

> --
> -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> -- May the Downforce be with you...

> "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
> how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Tom Pabs

What will it take to make you give up GPL???

by Tom Pabs » Thu, 16 Dec 1999 04:00:00

It is far more likely that the sun will not rise tomorrow.......than the
likelihood of there ever being a "GPL-2" ........so you might want to just
get this out of your head for good.

Tom Pabst


> Thats easy    GPL2 !!!!!!!!    :)



> > Well.....
> > Since GPL hcame along, I haven't heard a good word for another sim, I
> > haven't bought any other sims in the past year because I'm told they are
> > crap, but I'm realizing now that people hear ad-mouth quite good games
> > becaseu you jsut can't give up GPL.....

> > ....... well, there has to come a time when you say...oh, yes, this is
the
> > new GPL!!

> > What does that sim need?

> > The best I have heard in the last year is...."It has potential but still
> > does not rate like GPL......."

> > Thats the absolute BEST thing I have heard about any sim since
GPL........

> > .......what will it take to un-hipnotize you???

Tom Pabs

What will it take to make you give up GPL???

by Tom Pabs » Thu, 16 Dec 1999 04:00:00

Francois....

Let me ask you about this "boring race tracks" statement you made:

How come all the drivers in the real racing world don't get bored racing the
"same tracks" year after year?  Do you really mean you are bored with the
race tracks....or bored with the "racing" on them?

Give me thirty top drivers.......full length races with "pro" level
preparation on every driver's part....one race per week.  I don't care what
track(s) we race on.....I'll never get bored with the racing!

What do you think, Francois........is it really the "tracks" you are bored
with after all?

Tom Pabst



> > What does that sim need?

> For me.. just a game engine better than GPL.  That's all, nothing more.  I
> personally do not care about better or more realistic graphics, since it's
> icing on the cake.  If it's equal, I'll continue to race GPL as my primary
> simulator, and that means even if it's Nascar4 with the GPL game engine.
> But if it's a better game engine, it will be a great thing for the
community
> finally.  Not that I want to low-down GPL immediately, but the same
11tracks
> start to be a little boring after a year, imho.

> There will be a better one. When ? Who knows... 1year? 2years? Probably
not
> more.

> > The best I have heard in the last year is...."It has potential but still
> > does not rate like GPL......."

> That's about the summary of all the serious racing simulators this year :)
> SCGT, AMA Superbike, R2k, N3, etc..

> --
> -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> -- May the Downforce be with you...

> "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
> how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

GraDe

What will it take to make you give up GPL???

by GraDe » Thu, 16 Dec 1999 04:00:00

Exactly, its easy to make old cars feel rough and tricky, so no amtter how
detailed a new game is, it jsut seem to "smooth" for some people.....


GraDe

What will it take to make you give up GPL???

by GraDe » Thu, 16 Dec 1999 04:00:00

Oh I read plenty

GraDe

What will it take to make you give up GPL???

by GraDe » Thu, 16 Dec 1999 04:00:00

But ther you go again...... how can you make a modern day F1 sim with cars
as rough as that????

You can't!!

And being hard doesn't make a sim a sim!!



> > Well.....
> > Since GPL hcame along, I haven't heard a good word for another sim, I
> > haven't bought any other sims in the past year because I'm told they are
> > crap, but I'm realizing now that people hear ad-mouth quite good games
> > becaseu you jsut can't give up GPL.....

> > ....... well, there has to come a time when you say...oh, yes, this is
the
> > new GPL!!

> > What does that sim need?

> > The best I have heard in the last year is...."It has potential but still
> > does not rate like GPL......."

> > Thats the absolute BEST thing I have heard about any sim since
GPL........

> > .......what will it take to un-hipnotize you???

> A sim that is as hard as GPL! ;-)

> Seriously, I'd say a sim that gives the same feel of being in the car
> as GPL,
> A sim that models all the effects that GPL has,
> A sim that is as close, or closer to driving a real car as GPL that GPL
> gives

>   When all of the above is met, I'll be racing GPL *AND* the new Sim.
> GPL, to date, is in a class of it's own! Unfortunately, there's too many
> people out there that think that a Sim has to be a game, or has to be
> easy to be enjoyed.

> The closest Sim that would work would have to be Viper Racing.  If it
> had the capability of racing 20+ drivers online and had tracks that
> resembled (or closer resembled) real tracks.. Viper would have been in
> direct competition with GPL.  I think those are the only reasons why
> Viper Racing is seldom heard on this NG.  In my opinion, Viper Racing is
> a Sim that was degraded or marketed for the arcade racers.
> --
> =========================================
> Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing?
> =========================================
> http://members.xoom.com/BarlowRacing/

> Racing online with the help of......

> Race Communications Association
> Holodyne Engineering
> Mystic Music
> (have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here)

GraDe

What will it take to make you give up GPL???

by GraDe » Thu, 16 Dec 1999 04:00:00

Troll?
Its a question, And I acn drive, just not very fast:-)

No seriously, I just seem to be in teh minority who can see GPL for what ti
"really" is!


> Troll !!!!

> just 'cos u can't drive !!

> Jus' kidding



> > Well.....
> > Since GPL hcame along, I haven't heard a good word for another sim, I
> > haven't bought any other sims in the past year because I'm told they are
> > crap, but I'm realizing now that people hear ad-mouth quite good games
> > becaseu you jsut can't give up GPL.....

> > ....... well, there has to come a time when you say...oh, yes, this is
the
> > new GPL!!

> > What does that sim need?

> > The best I have heard in the last year is...."It has potential but still
> > does not rate like GPL......."

> > Thats the absolute BEST thing I have heard about any sim since
GPL........

> > .......what will it take to un-hipnotize you???

GraDe

What will it take to make you give up GPL???

by GraDe » Thu, 16 Dec 1999 04:00:00

But what is a better Engine?!?!?!!?


> > What does that sim need?

> For me.. just a game engine better than GPL.  That's all, nothing more.  I
> personally do not care about better or more realistic graphics, since it's
> icing on the cake.  If it's equal, I'll continue to race GPL as my primary
> simulator, and that means even if it's Nascar4 with the GPL game engine.
> But if it's a better game engine, it will be a great thing for the
community
> finally.  Not that I want to low-down GPL immediately, but the same
11tracks
> start to be a little boring after a year, imho.

> There will be a better one. When ? Who knows... 1year? 2years? Probably
not
> more.

> > The best I have heard in the last year is...."It has potential but still
> > does not rate like GPL......."

> That's about the summary of all the serious racing simulators this year :)
> SCGT, AMA Superbike, R2k, N3, etc..

> --
> -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> -- May the Downforce be with you...

> "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
> how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

GraDe

What will it take to make you give up GPL???

by GraDe » Thu, 16 Dec 1999 04:00:00

No, This NG shouldb e renamed.....r.a.gpl.

People just need to post a message here without even mentioning GPL and
people respond...... its madness!!!

All other sims are put down becaseu you all haev an obsession with GPL.....
there must be some stop to it?



> > Since GPL hcame along, I haven't heard a good word for another sim, I
> > haven't bought any other sims in the past year because I'm told they are
> > crap, but I'm realizing now that people hear ad-mouth quite good games
> > becaseu you jsut can't give up GPL.....

> Still, you fail to understand the meaning of this group.  It's called
> REC.AUTOS.SIMULATORS, it's about a bunch of *** racing simulation
> freaks.  We promote having a more realistic game engine and gameplay tools
> over good looking graphics and lens flare.

> --
> -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> -- May the Downforce be with you...

> "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
> how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

GraDe

What will it take to make you give up GPL???

by GraDe » Thu, 16 Dec 1999 04:00:00

CART3....now thats the one I want!


> NASCAR 4 with the GPL engine? :)

> Then, how 'bout CART Racing 3 with the GPL engine?



> > Well.....
> > Since GPL hcame along, I haven't heard a good word for another sim, I
> > haven't bought any other sims in the past year because I'm told they are
> > crap, but I'm realizing now that people hear ad-mouth quite good games
> > becaseu you jsut can't give up GPL.....

> > ....... well, there has to come a time when you say...oh, yes, this is
the
> > new GPL!!

> > What does that sim need?

> > The best I have heard in the last year is...."It has potential but still
> > does not rate like GPL......."

> > Thats the absolute BEST thing I have heard about any sim since
GPL........

> > .......what will it take to un-hipnotize you???

> --
> -----------------------------------
> Morgan Vincent Wooten

> http://members.tripod.com/~morganv/
> -----------------------------------

ymenar

What will it take to make you give up GPL???

by ymenar » Thu, 16 Dec 1999 04:00:00


I suggest you go read some interviews with David Kaemmer about the GPL new
game engine.  Most of us are not in love with GPL because it simulates
racing 1967 F1 cars.  It is a nice addition and a pleasant era to drive
cars, but the general reason is because of the new game engine.  It is so
much more successful and realistic than any other one in history. It
calculated in great accuracy how a race car should behave in any situation.
If you could only understand how it's 288hz of physics calculation are
something incredible and a big step forward.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

ymenar

What will it take to make you give up GPL???

by ymenar » Thu, 16 Dec 1999 04:00:00


lol eh true Tom ;)

And an accurate Sears Point !

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

ymenar

What will it take to make you give up GPL???

by ymenar » Thu, 16 Dec 1999 04:00:00


Ugh I know I would be searching for little trouble here. It was just a
subliminal message for some people I know to release the darn N2, NR99 and
Icr2 converted tracks ;)

Well, that's true.  But do you race those tracks each 2-3 days ? I
personally drive Monza almost each day.  After 365times at Monza, it starts
a little to be boring.  I've tried to race backwards, race in reverse, race
in reverse+ backwards eh.  Trying F2 and F3 cars at the moment.

I just would like something new with the GPL game engine.  Anything.  N4 or
a CART title.

Your point is true.  That's why the Nurburgring is always fun.  I race there
about once each two weeks, so it makes for incredible fun racing.  Like the
F2 race I did which had the top4 at the end only 10seconds apart.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

ymenar

What will it take to make you give up GPL???

by ymenar » Thu, 16 Dec 1999 04:00:00


GPL.....

We don't put down the other ones.  It is normal that for a group named
rec.autos.simulators, we promote realistic racing over everything else (the
majority of us are like that be sure).  We simply compare all the current
titles being released to the one that is the best at the moment, which is
GPL.  Before it was N2, before it was GP2, or Icr2, or Indy500: The
simulation, F1GP, Revs, Pole Position, etc..

Yes.. unsubcribe to the newsgroup or filter out the word GPL.  Don't try to
change the mentality of our group. Accept it, or don't.  Yoda once said..
"Try not.  Do, or do not. There is no try...".

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."


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